The following is a transcript of Episode 6 of the TEXTing Podcast. Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.

Elana: Welcome to TEXTing, where we consider issues relevant to Jewish life through the lens of classical and modern tour texts. I’m your host, Elana Stein Hain. TEXTing is generously sponsored by the Walder Charitable Fund and Micah Philanthropies. If you’d like to follow along with today’s text, you can find the link to our source sheet in the episode description.

A few weeks back, I attended a gala fundraised for an Israel-based institution. It was the first time I dressed up since October 7th, aside for my nephew’s wedding, and it felt ludicrous. Yes, of course, I wore a ribbon for the hostages, and of course, we started with prayers. But smiling for pictures while wearing a yellow ribbon? It felt like a contradiction. Eating hors d’oeuvres while my family members sit in tanks in Gaza, or guarding the northern border of Israel? Another contradiction. 

But I went and I smiled and I ate and I talked, because the cause is one that I believe in, and the cause is one that continues Jewish life in Israel and around the world. That night the crisis and the long-term vision for the Jewish people clashed deeply for me. And the truth is, Jewish life right now is full of contradictions. Many people are struggling with the tensions between loyalty and dissonance, compassion and rage, fear and hope, and the outcomes of those struggles in action, in voice and in commitments may be different for different people. 

This time period is perhaps a fever-pitch version of the contradictions that beset people’s lives generally as individuals and as communities. We live with dissonance that can be both constructive and daunting. And the best Torah to think with about dissonance is the book of Ecclesiastes, Kohelet. As the third chapter famously begins, “A season is set for everything. A time for everything under heaven, a time for being born, and a time for dying, A time for planting, and a time for uprooting the planted.” And later in that chapter, “A time for loving and a time for hating, a time for war and a time for peace.”

Life is full of contradictory experiences and feelings. And it’s what makes us human. Today, I’m joined by the philosopher, Dr. Leora Batnitzky, a Hartman Senior Fellow and a Professor of Religion. She’s writing a book on Kohelet, Ecclesiastes. Let’s talk about this book, Leora. What themes drew you to be interested in writing about Kohelet?

Leora: Well, first of all, thanks for having me, Elana. It’s great to be here. I just love the book of Kohelet and I realize it’s not always the most popular with those who read it, especially on Sukkot or in the synagogue. 

But I think what draws me to it is precisely how, in many ways, unbiblical it is, and the very fact that it is included in the biblical canon. I think that the themes that Kohelet discusses are, in many ways, timeless themes, and it really questions about what really do we human beings do of enduring worth? And Kohelet gives a relatively negative answer, though I think there’s much positive in the text, which I’m happy also to talk about, where he says that there isn’t actually anything of any enduring worth that we human beings can achieve in this life. And so it’s very unbiblical, yet it is in the cannon. And that’s really what appeals to me about the text. I.

Elana: So that’s great, because what I wanna learn with you today on the podcast is, I wanna learn a section of Talmud where the rabbis are struggling with, okay, why should this book be in the canon? Should this book be in the canon? And so what we’re looking at today is we’re looking at the Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 30B that starts as follows. Rav Yehuda, son of Rav Shmuel Bar Shilat said in the name of Rav, the sages sought to suppress the book of Ecclesiastes, “Bikshu chachamim lignoz Sefer Kohelet.” Essentially declare it apocryphal because its statements contradict each other. But why did they not suppress it? Because its beginning consists of matters of Torah and its ends consist of matters of Torah. 

What do we mean? Its beginnings consist of matters of Torah as it is written in the first chapter. What prophet has a person for all of the labor that that person labors under the sun? And the sage has said from the school of Rabbi Yannai, ah, okay, under the sun is where a person has no profit for their labor, but before the sun presumably talking about maybe. The divine creating the world by looking at the Torah first to create it. Maybe just suggesting that God is before the sun and Torah relates to God, but before the sun a person does have profit. 

And don’t worry, the end, sofo divrei Torah, the end of Kohelet, also ends with Torah, chapter 12. It’s written the following the end of the matter, sof davar, all having been heard, fear God and keep God’s commandments for this is the sum of a human being. 

And so we introduce the problematic of Kohelet as, it has a lot of contradictions, but don’t worry, its framing is, there is something enduring: Torah.

Leora: And I think in part of the text that’s not included here, there’s specifically the comment that the contradictions can lead to heresy. So this is part of the issue, but it’s curious because generally speaking, the rabbis love contradictions. Because it’s an opportunity for interpretation and in fact, if there weren’t contradictions or tensions, we wouldn’t really have any rabbinic literature. I think that’s actually fair to say that that’s why we have the Talmud and Midrash and all kinds of interpretation.

Elana: Right. This is really the stuff of rabbinic creativity.

Leora: Yes, absolutely. 

Elana: Beautiful. It has contradictions. Let’s make something out of those contradictions.

Leora: Absolutely. We have some sources here from Kohelet Rabbah, if you look at Koehelet Rabbah one of the things that you’ll see is that all kinds of different interpretations, many of which contradict one another, are offered about Kohelet, and just listed, and that’s very typical of Midrash. 

So to me, I think that what the rabbis are really worried about is, is two things. Is first the claim that labor or toil or amal doesn’t amount to anything. And then the other thing that they’re worried about, which we’ll talk about a little bit, is what to do with Kohelet’s emphasis on joy, simkha, and how to understand that in the context of a religious life. 

Now, I just wanna say that that’s interesting because there are many other contradictions in Kohelet. So let me just name a few, just for our purposes, is that Kohelet, which is part of what we typically call wisdom literature, is very ambivalent about wisdom itself. In some places, Kohelet thinks that wisdom is good. In other places, he tells us, wisdom is completely useless. It’s hevel. 

Justice, divine justice, there are some places where Kohelet says God judges all, and, but there are other places where Kohelet says, you know, I’m looking around and it doesn’t seem that the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are punished. There’s no one there to comfort them. So, so there is this tension. There’s also a tension about enjoyment as I said, because while Kohelet does talk about simkha, he also often ends any kind of mention of simkha with, with everything is hevel, at the end.

So these are big contradictions. There’s also a contradiction about women. In one part he’s very negative about women. Extremely negative. Probably the most negative in the Tanakh. But at the end of the text he says, you know, find yourself a wife.

Elana: Well, it’s so interesting because we’ve seen kind of a spate of Kohelet books come out in the last few years, and when I think about what we’ve all been through, you know, the upheaval of COVID and all that it, that upheaval represents in terms of what people thought about life. The invasion of Ukraine by Russia, essentially unimpeded, right, and sort of feeling powerless to do anything. And now October 7th and the war between Israel and Hamas, I’m not surprised that some of these questions of divine justice, you know, is wisdom worth anything? Are we actually getting anywhere? 

You know, it doesn’t surprise me that we’ve seen a lot of this, but what I think is kind of interesting about this opening of the Gemara is they want to have a tether. They want to have stable anchors. So if you have stable anchors, then all of the contradictions that you’re gonna weather, those anchors are gonna hold you somewhere. Right? So they’re not finding the anchor in wisdom. They’re not finding the anchor in joy. They’re finding the anchor in Torah through a creative reading of the beginning of Kohelet, right?

So let’s get to some of these contradictions, right? So the Talmud asks, how do these verses in Kohelet or clauses in Kohelet contradict each other? Well, in one place it’s written. “Tov ka’as mitzchok,” “vexation is better than laughter.” That’s Kohelet chapter seven. 

But then in another place, it’s written, “I said of laughter, it is praiseworthy.” That’s Kohelet back in chapter two. So you tell me, is it better to be angry and vexed or is it better to laugh? That’s the first contradiction. 

Second contradiction. Likewise, in one verse, it’s written, “so I commended Mirth. Shibachti ani et hasimkha.” Joy is good, happiness is good. And then that was in chapter eight, but you go back to chapter two and you see “What does mirth even accomplish,” right? So those are our two contradictions. 

Do you have anything to say, even before they try to resolve the contradictions in a truly rabbinic fashion, about the contradictions between anger and laughter? The question of what does joy actually do for you? Is it actually valuable?

Leora: I think that one of the things that Kohelet is pointing to is the fact that there are times at which vexation or anger is more appropriate than laughter. There are times at which laughter is more appropriate than anger. And similarly, joy is something that we should appreciate. But at the end of the day, joy is short-lived. 

And so I, I think part of what’s going on here is that he’s very contextual, and really talking again about his own musings and his own reflections and realizing that he as an individual has had all kinds of different and contradictory experiences in life. And I think it’s a mistake when some people try to read the text to resolve all of the contradictions and to say that they aren’t there. Elana: Well, so it’s really interesting because what you’re really saying is sometimes things that feel like contradictory are actually contextual differences. Meaning there are places and times and moments where certain feelings surge and are right to surge. And then there are places and times and moments where other feelings surge. 

And I think one of the things that’s difficult for people right now is that we have some of those feelings in the same day. Or in the same hour, right? So I wanna see what the rabbis do to try to, not just say this context versus that context, but almost to make it into a, like an ideology. So this is what they say. 

So, you know what? No problem. We can resolve these contradictions. Vexation is better than laughter. And here they are about to give us a theology. The vexation of God towards the righteous in this world is preferable to the laughter with which God laughs at the wicked, or with the wicked, I should say, in this world, by showering them with goodness. Meaning better for God to do bad things to the good people in this world so that they’re, they have the next world, than for God to be so kind to the wicked in this world, because it means in the next world they’re gonna suffer. 

Now this is exactly what you’re talking about, Leora. It’s, what’s the problem? The problem is that Kohelet talks about the fact that the righteous have bad things happen to them, and the wicked have good things happen to them. And so they’re trying to say, oh, oh, oh, we can actually explain that, we can resolve it, right? And I think that’s a really interesting rabbinic move to say, we wanna tether you back to something that’s gonna give you a sense of hope and a sense of stability. 

And that’s really hitting on your second point of they want to try to figure out a way that joy is religious, that there’s something good about it, without it being epicurean, right? 

Leora: Right. So I think that the rabbis do something really interesting with joy when you compare them to some of their contemporaries. And so, so they do wanna make a place for joy in life. And they wanna say that actually doing mitzvah is joy. Being in relationship to God is joy. Actually being in the world, in relationship to God is joy.

So that’s really interesting in terms of, say, two different groups that are contemporaneous with this text or the interpretation of the text. The epicurean as you mentioned, this idea that we should seek pleasure for pleasure’s sake. That’s something Kohelet himself rejects, especially in chapter two, talks about, I was king. I had all the stuff, I had everything, but what’s it worth?

So that, that kind of visceral, physical joy, material joy that he rejects and the rabbis reject. It’s hard to know exactly dates, but somewhere roughly contemporaneous, say with St. Jerome, who is one of the early church fathers, he’s the one who created the Latin translation of the Bible, of the Vulgate. And Jerome reads Kohelet actually as completely against joy and saying that actually the world itself, creation itself, was somehow inflicted with hevel. Jerome is responsible for the translation as hevel as vanity or vanitas. The world is this way, and Jerome sees this as Kohelet, as an argument for monasticism.. 

And that’s a position that is not just Jerome’s own, but really, basically, with very minor exceptions, is the Christian position until Luther, ad Kohelet. So the rabbis are interesting in this way because they don’t wanna say that life itself, which they understand in relationship to God, is in any way problematic. In fact, it is joyful. To live and to be in proper relationship to God should be joyful. And so they’re really very affirming. 

So I really see them actually in relationships specifically to the early Christians as being much closer to the text of Kohelet in this sense. 

Elana: Wow. That’s really interesting. You read through the book of Kohelet and you do experience this sense of contradiction. It’s one thing to create the ideology or to reflect the ideology of, don’t worry about the unfairness that you see, it will all be taken care of in some way, which is what they did with vexation and laughter. But I think it’s another thing here to say, by the way, you can always access meaningful joy,

Leora: Right, yes, and that deeper meaning I think also has to do with recognition of what one’s portion in life is, chelek, which is one of the themes in Kohelet as well,that you must embrace your portion in life. Now, on the one hand, that can be very disturbing because the claim could be, well look, people are born into unjust circumstances, and so therefore, you just must embrace that your life, that’s who, that’s what you get, and that that part is disturbing. 

But I think there’s another aspect of it, which I think when we think about it on a more individual level, as opposed to sort of a more kind of political social level, which is that each of us does, to to some extent, have the capacity to affirm our own existence, in relationship to the world created by God and to be part of that world.

And I think that’s really what I think Kohelet’s also getting at is that, there is a kind of joy, with all of life’s sorrows, in just being able to be in the world and to exist. And that’s something to be grateful for. 

Now that said, I’ll contradict myself by saying that,

Elana: Perfect. That’s exactly,

Leora: Kohelet does make statements that it’s better not to be born than to have been born, which is a rabbinic view as well. But nevertheless, I think there’s room for that joy. The fact that there can be joy in one’s portion doesn’t mean that injustice doesn’t exist. This contradiction can actually exist together. I mean, despite all of the problems in our lives and the horrible situation in the world, we still have things to be grateful for, and that doesn’t cancel out those horrible things. And that’s, to me, really Kohelet’s power, is that joy and sorrow in this sense don’t cancel each other out. 

It’s not as if, you know, if I have 10 pounds of joy and 9 pounds of sorrow, I’m happy. These things have to coexist with one another. And let me just add there, that I think that’s what’s so powerful about the fact that Kohelet’s included in the biblical canon, is that you’re right, Elana, that the rabbis do want to anchor Kohelet in something, but nevertheless, they let Kohelet’s statements about the futility, the absurdity, the vanity of life. They let them stand, and not only do they let them stand, they include them as part of our yearly liturgy.

Elana: Yep. Very pwwerful. 

Leora: And I think it’s extremely powerful that this truth can coexist alongside other truths.

Elana: You know, maybe its canonization is what anchors it in Torah, right? You literally, it’s, once it’s in the book, it is going to be read differently because it’s alongside other books, right, than if it was out there. 

Now, my question to you is, can I pull you away from Kohelet into the book of Proverbs, the book of Mishlei? Because the Talmud continues, you know, there’s a little bit of a dot, dot, dot in between, as we always do, but the Talmud continues with the book of Proverbs. It, too, has contradictions, and it goes as follows. And the sages sought to suppress the book of Proverbs, of Mishlei as well, because its statements contradict each other. 

But why didn’t they suppress it? Well, they said in the case of the Book of Kohelet, we analyzed it and found an explanation that its statements weren’t contradictory. So here too, let’s analyze it. 

In what way do its statements contradict each other? Well, on the one hand, it’s written, “Do not answer a fool according to their folly, lest you become like that fool.” That’s Proverbs 26:4, and the very next verse says, “Answer a fool according to their folly, so that that fool won’t be wise in their own eyes.” 

So do you answer the fool or do you not answer the fool? And the rabbis have a suggestion as to how to remedy this as well, which is, well, in a case where a fool is making claims about Torah matters, then you answer them. In a case where they’re talking about something else, mundane matters, then you don’t. And I think it’s interesting, the contradiction in Mishlei, in Proverbs, is very different. It’s not a contradiction about when are you gonna be vexed and when are you gonna laugh. It’s not a contradiction about sort of, we’re not sure emotionally how to be. 

It’s actually a contradiction about how you relate to others. And that there’s sort of a time to fight verbally. And there’s a time that actually when you start fighting, you start sounding like the person you think is ridiculous, right. And I think people kind of having a hard time with that right now as well. Right. It’s, there are a lot of different opinions, a lot of different perspectives, a lot of toxicity. And the question of where and when to have a conversation. That contradiction actually belongs in our psyche.

Leora: It basically is something that is extremely contextual. Now, of course, the hard part in real life is figuring out when we’re going to count something as a Torah matter and when we’re not. 

Elana: Yes. Well said. Well said.

Leora: So I think that that’s something we all face in some ways, when does it make sense, as you said, to get into an argument and when do we make things worse by getting into different kinds of arguments, but I don’t see it as the same kind of contradictions that the rabbis are pointing to in Kohelet. And it’s very interesting that they feel the need to say this about Mishlei.

Elana: Yeah. Especially because Mishlei, Proverbs, as a book for people who know or don’t know, is really a book that tells people to be God-fearing, diligent, good, honest. You know, it’s, it’s not, it’s a very biblical book. It’s just not about the collective people of Israel and their covenant with God. It’s about a parent talking to their child of how to be good. 

But you know, maybe the fact that it doesn’t talk about that big collective story, but it’s talking about kind of how an individual lives their lives gives sort of a big question mark of where does this fit. 

But I do think that, you know, some of what we’ve done today, I hope on this, in this conversation, is we’ve helped people think about, first of all, contradictions as a feature, rather than a bug, the ability to actually anchor oneself in something, even when people are feeling maybe a little bit helpless among the contradictions, I think also the ability to find meaningful joy, even within the difficulties of the reality of things.

And I think the question of where we’re feeling contradictions in terms of our own feelings and where we’re feeling contradictions when we’re talking to others, I think is all relevant. You know, you told me today, Leora, and I think we should end with this cause I think it’s powerful. You told me that you had another contradiction in mind that I had not thought of, and I would love for people to hear it.

Leora: Sure. I think this is at least a contradiction that I feel I experience frequently, especially in these last weeks and months a contradiction between, on the one hand feeling deep, deep, deep despair and deep, deep anger. And I think that that despair and anger are actually contradictory, because despair ultimately is the view that nothing, I can’t do anything about this, it’s just so horrible. This is the way it is. And anger is the view that things should be otherwise. And that something should be done about it, and maybe I should do something about it, and I think that is a very powerful conflict and a very powerful contradiction between the two.

I’ll just add to it, as another plug for Kohelet, that I think in some sense this is really the question of how much control we actually have over our own lives. And it’s not an easy answer. I think many of us modern, contemporary people often like to think we can control everything if we just figure out the right algorithms or if just everybody in the world were rational, it’ll all be great. 

I think, unfortunately, reality looks really different and I think one of the things that Kohelet is pointing to is the way in which we’re not always so much in control of what’s gonna happen in our lives as individuals. One thing that we can do, however, is control how we respond to those events in our lives. And that’s where control, that’s where freedom comes in. 

You started with chapter three, for everything there is a season, a time to be born, a time to die, et cetera. And I think that chapter is just, I would suggest everyone read it, not just the first nine verses, which is the Pete Seeger song, but the whole chapter. And you’ll see that it’s very ambiguous about whether or not we have the ability to know when the right time is, or whether the right time is entirely determined by God. And I think that ambiguity is actually something that’s just very true to the human experience, certainly to the individual human experience.

Elana: Yeah, that’s a beautiful way to end because it actually basically says we’re all in it together.

Leora: We are. I think that’s right. 

Elana: A lot of unknowns, and all of humanity is actually in it together.

Leora: When we say we’re all in it together, I just wanna remind everyone in chapter four of Kohelet, where he says two is better than one, because we can keep each other warm. And then he says, a threefold cord is not easily broken. So in the middle of this text, which in many ways is telling us that everything is vanity and absurd, he’s actually talking about also the importance of human connection and how we are all in this together.

Elana: That’s beautiful. Leora, thank you so much for opening, just for opening this up a little bit, not just Kohelet, which I know that you’re plugging, which I love, and I feel it with you, but just the human experience, you know, really helping us understand our experiences right now.

Thank you so much for learning with us, everyone, and a special thanks to my chavruta this week, Leora Batnitzky.

TEXTingis produced by Tessa Zitter and our executive producer Maital Friedman with production assistance from Tamar Marvin. M Louis Gordon is our senior producer. This episode was mixed by Ben Azavedo at Bear Cave Audio with music provided by Luke Allen. 

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