The following is a transcript of Episode 119 of the For Heaven’s Sake Podcast. Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.

Donniel: This is Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. And this is For Heaven’s Sake, still our special edition, Israel at War, Day 172. And today’s episode is sponsored by a Hartman Institute board member and my dear friend Wayne Robbins in celebration of the birth of his grandson Charlie Jacob Robbins. Nice name. All of us extend our warmest mazel to Charlie and wish him a lifetime filled with learning, growth, boundless opportunities, and despite today’s podcast, without too much agmas nefesh, too much aggravation.

Today’s not going to be an easy podcast. Our theme is Netanyahu. And the only way to start this podcast for me is to say to Yossi, you were right.

Yossi: I’ll take it. I’ll take it and I’ll pocket it.

Donniel: You are very often very generous. You could pocket it. I’ve never, you know me, I’m not into the vilification of people. Number one, I’m not into the vilification of people because I always feel that it’s more complicated. I always feel that it’s more complicated than that. It’s always more complicated. It’s never just one person. And people are so much more complicated and nuanced, and I’m never into the vilification of people because I don’t know what I’m supposed to do with it. It doesn’t lead me anywhere. 

But I have to tell you Yossi, since last year, and I think probably before that, you have seen Netanyahu as the center of negative, problematic, and sometimes destructive things that are happening in Israeli society and to the Jewish people. And I always said, Yossi, you know, control it. 

So I still want to control it. But I have to tell you, I have never been more angry at an Israeli prime minister in my lifetime. Failure doesn’t bother me. Mistakes don’t bother me. You know, welcome to the human condition. I have never seen an Israeli Prime Minister act in such a destructive way to the cause of Israel, to the well-being of the Jewish people. 

I am so upset. And I don’t want to wallow in it. And I don’t want this podcast to be a wallowing because you know, what are we going to do with it? But at the same time, part of our job is to give voice to what we’re feeling, to what a lot of Israelis are feeling, not all Israelis. I wish I could understand. I wish I could somehow give his responses and what he’s doing some rationale. It is just so completely unacceptable and destructive. 

And so I wanted, today, with you, Yossi, and my challenge to you is, I said to you, I agree with you, so hopefully that could let you off the hook a little bit that you don’t have to go too far. You could just go as far, you will go just as far as I want you to go, okay? Like not go too far. Like it’s like, well, you know, in therapy you’re heard, Yossi, I’ve seen you, not only do I understand where you’re coming from, I share it. I want to today try to understand. How do we understand what’s happening? And then, other than calling for immediate elections, I want to point to what are the most problematic features of what he’s doing, so that with the eye of asking, what could we, even though we’re not prime minister, even though we’re not in the government, what could we as citizens talk about, think about, demonstrate about? What are our causes? 

Because if there’s one thing we learned from the last year, it’s that there’s a prime minister and the prime minister doesn’t shape all of Israel. And so, Yossi, how do you even understand a prime minister turning to the United States, at this most difficult time, where we’re alienated around the world and our one significant ally is the United States, and what, like, he’s going to now boycott the United States and to say, I’m not going to accept aid from you anymore? Like, what, what, what is the insanity?

Yossi: Yeah, I’ll punish you. Take that, America.

Donniel: What, in which universe, could you even make sense of any of this, Yossi?

Yossi: Donniel, it’s hard to know for me personally where to begin with Netanyahu because my horror at what he’s done to the country has accumulated over these last few years and really culminated in this moment. And what I see is a prime minister who has lost any capacity to make a distinction between his own personal political needs and the most basic needs of the country. 

Now, Netanyahu was always a ruthless politician, and that was perceived to be his strength by the Israeli public. Israelis wanted a leader who could stand up to the Middle East. We wanted someone who was a quasi-Middle Eastern leader, but still, in some sense, decent, still certainly a patriot.

Today, I think Netanyahu has only one love, and that’s himself. And so there are so many ways in which to unpack this story. There’s first of all, the corruption of power. He’s our longest-serving prime minister. He’s now in his 16th year. He’s outstripped Ben Gurion, Begin, and in his mind, I think that makes him Israel’s greatest prime minister. I think he truly believes that about himself and that he truly believes that whatever is good for me has to be good for the country by definition. 

So that’s one level. What we’re seeing is the tragedy of unrestrained power, of power being equated not with the nation, but with an individual. And that’s when I’m trying to be generous to him. 

Donniel: Oh, this is you being generous.

Yossi: This is generous, Donniel, because what that reading of Netanyahu is saying is the way that you began this podcast, welcome to the human race, this is a pattern that we’ve seen throughout history of leaders who may have begun well. And I think of him in that sense as our version of King Saul. King Saul was the most tragic of the kings of Israel. We had in ancient Israel and Judea, we had many terrible kings. But the most tragic was King Saul, who was the first king, and a spectacularly failed king, who began with tremendous promise, as did Netanyahu. 

And what we’re seeing in Netanyahu’s case is the systematic dismantling of his own very impressive legacy, whether it was restraining the ultra-Orthodox community, he did that as finance minister. And he warned that if the relationship with the ultra-Orthodox community isn’t changed, Israel will not be economically viable in the long term. He took very courageous steps. 

Netanyahu all these years has been our most cautious prime minister in war, even in restraining the excesses of the radical right. Netanyahu was the guy, I mean, you began with his new war with America. Netanyahu began his career as the Israeli politician who best knows America. I’m the guy who can speak to America. Whenever we needed a spokesperson on Meet the Press, send Bibi, he’s going to explain things. 

Now he’s toxic. So this is the story on another level of a politician who has systematically dismantled his own impressive, even extraordinary achievements. And so I see Netanyahu as one of the great tragedies of Israeli history.

Donniel: You know, if I can as an educator give some spin for one moment or to our audience, if, so far, you’re feeling worse than when you started to listen to this podcast, because I am, there is an educational theory which involves validating. So if you’re confused right now and you’re upset and you love Israel, Yossi and I, we’re just going to validate you’re being upset. And we’re going to create room for people to be upset. And so hopefully there is some virtue and value. We’re not bringing you further down. Hopefully by seeing us being upset, you don’t have to worry so much. It’s normal. It’s normal. But it is actually very hard. Because at this time, this is a time of war. And I just read the latest Pew poll, it’s in the Forward today, where still the vast majority of Jews in America and Canada support Israel and even justify the way Israel is fighting the war. 

And this was a poll from mid-February. It was a few weeks ago. I could just imagine we’re still holding on and Netanyahu is just making it so much harder for us. This is such a dangerous time and a time of war is a time where we’re supposed to unite together. We’re supposed to have each other’s back and I want to have Netanyahu’s back. I wanna have the government’s back. I’m not blaming anybody for October 7th, I’m leaving that alone, leaving that aside. 

Yossi: For now.

Donniel: For now, I’m not even, that’s not even a big deal by me. For me, that really is not a big deal. Because I always see October 7th as inevitable. I think you have to resign, but I don’t blame people, it’s just the human condition is always gonna screw up. And we just screwed up so royally. You know, I don’t need people’s heads. I’m different, and I appreciate that. 

But right now, day 172, Hamas has just rejected the latest American and Israeli proposals on hostage release. The pain is there. Our soldiers are there. We’re sitting outside of Rafah. There’s an international community standing up increasingly against us and condemning us for fighting a just war unjustly. And along comes our prime minister. And so it’s not a time, but it is a time because that’s what we’re feeling. 

And so I wanted to now, let’s move to another step. Even calling Netanyahu Saul, the analogy is interesting. It would be devastating for him because I think he always sees himself as a combination of David and Solomon. The wisdom of Solomon and the success and maybe the power, because the truth is David was also tragic, but some of that initial, you know, the greatest king and the wisest king, calling him Saul would be devastating.

Yossi: It’s interesting, Donniel, in an interview that he gave a couple months ago with Bari Weiss, she asked him, who is your favorite biblical character? And very revealingly, he said, King Saul. And I suspect that on some level, he knows that he’s a failure. He knows the tragedy. Donniel: Wow, that’s very interesting. I’ve never seen anybody who say that that’s their favorite figure. That’s very interesting. But, so now let’s try to point in a positive way, not painting Netanyahu in a positive light, but like what do you believe is the greatest mistake or failure of him now, over these 172 days, in the hope that we could concentrate on where, what are our shortcomings so that we could think about what do we have to advocate for?

Because remember, citizens, we’re sovereign. I don’t feel disempowered. I feel angry, but I want to focus that anger. I want to focus on asking what do we want? So Yossi, if you had to pick, and you get one, because I know you have seven, but I want you to pick one. What do you believe is the greatest shortcoming, which is transforming Netanyahu into Israel’s greatest liability?

Yossi: So for me to answer that question, I have to argue with something you said a moment ago. 

Donniel: You don’t have to, just for the record, Yossi. You can, but remember, I started this podcast with I agree with you, so it’s like I was being really nice, Yossi.

Donniel: You did. You did. You did. You were very generous. And I’m going to return the favor by disagreeing with a key point that you said. And that is that you said you’re not blaming Netanyahu for October 7th. And, on the one hand, Donniel, I really appreciate that generous spirit. And I have all along in our disagreement over Netanyahu, because I understood that that’s where it was coming from. That, you and I were out there on the streets, demonstrating to save Israeli democracy, and yet you refused to go to where I was going, where I was, and remained, which is making this in some sense personal. You really did not want this to be a settling of scores with him. And I respected that. 

But there’s a piece of a crucial analysis here which can get lost in that generous spirit. And that is that Netanyahu deserves the blame for October 7th because of the one overriding character flaw, which is playing out today, maybe culminating today, and that is ignoring warnings. Netanyahu was warned by the entire security establishment, don’t push ahead with the judicial revolution. You are tearing this country apart, you’re destroying the army, you’re sending a message to our enemies that we’re weak and vulnerable, and they’re going to attack.

Now, no one knew, no one in the security establishment knew the attack was going to come from Gaza. The assumption was it was going to come from the North. But nevertheless, and we all saw the headlines, big headlines in the papers, security establishment warns Netanyahu, disaster is approaching. Yair Lapid, the head of the opposition, called a press conference the day before Yom Kippur, saying he’s just come from a military briefing, as in his capacity as head of opposition, he said, I have to warn the country. We are on the verge of a major catastrophe. Lieberman warned a week before the war. This was known. And yet Netanyahu ignored all of these warnings for his own political purposes. 

And so what we’re seeing playing out today, not in an internal Israeli way any longer, but now on the world stage, is that same arrogance, that same self-centeredness. And unimaginably, the man who placed Israeli-American relations at the core of his mission as prime minister is now threatening those relations for his own perceived political well-being. And I say perceived because I think he is making one miscalculation after another. The Israeli public does not like when its leaders endanger our relations with our closest ally, certainly not in the middle of a war. So I think this is a character flaw, Donniel, that’s profound.

Donniel: That’s profound. Okay, I hear you. How do we solve that, is basically getting rid of him. I appreciate that. I want to offer another take, and I’ve been feeling it since basically the first week of the war, maybe by the second week of the war. And I know that part of our job as lovers of Israel is to be part of Israel’s team, I have to cheer you on. I have to say, yay, the government, yay, the army, we’re doing great, yeah, you know, all of that. From the first week or second week, I began to sense that we are fighting in 48-hour cycles. Sometimes 24 cycles, 24 hour cycles. I’ve seen it continuously. 

I saw the way the army was functioning and I kept on seeing, I kept asking, where, what’s your move? When the government said, yes, this is gonna be, Netanyahu early on said, we’re gonna be fighting this war into 2025. And I sat down and I asked, I said, really? In which universe do you think you have till 2025 to continue this war?

And the strategy or lack of strategy, the political, the international community, humanitarian aid, moral discussion, I’ve been seeing a 24 to 48-hour planning cycle. And I think that’s what’s causing this right now also. What, you didn’t see things, America was, it’s there, you know? They’re, how many times does someone have to say to you, Netanyahu, you can’t go into Rafah without dealing with the civilians of Rafah? You can’t, give me a plan. Come up with another way of doing it. Because also moving a million and a half people is not going to be simple. You can’t keep on giving speeches in which you declare that without destroying and entering Rafah, we cannot win the war. 

By the way, it’s not just a Netanyahu position, that’s a very broad consensus in Israel. Most Israelis want to go into Rafah. Most Israelis want to defeat Hamas. They’re not ready for a ceasefire until hostages are free and until there is some greater defeat of Hamas in some scenario. But your job as leader is to actually plan. Your job as leader is to say, okay, that’s where I have to go. Don’t give me a 48 cycle. So what am I going to do? Yes, in the next 48 hours, I’m going to give three speeches. When are you going to start building the first tents? Anywhere, tell me you want to build it in Israel, in Kerem Shalom. You want to build it in Khan Yunis. You want to build it in Gaza. You want to build it in northern Gaza. Do something. Don’t just give a speech. Actually give a plan. 

And I think part of the reason why people are writing about this now all over is that Netanyahu has lost the trust of the world. Even Trump, sometimes I think that Netanyahu says, oh, what I have to do is I’m now gonna fight Biden and say Tehillim that Trump will win. You know, like that’s a strategy, good luck. Who are you winning and who are you losing? 

Yossi: It isn’t going to help him this time around. Even Trump has said, yeah, yeah, Trump is fed up with him.

Donniel: Exactly. Did you hear Trump? Tell us, what did Trump say? Trump said, you know, you’re right to go to the war, Biden said it too, but you gotta finish this up. And then he turns and says, you have to finish this up. And he says, and then you’re gonna have to turn to peace. Actually, Trump is far more dangerous for Netanyahu and Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition because he’s not gonna be able to ignore their peace plans the way he thinks he could ignore Biden’s and Democratic peace plans, calling them progressives, you don’t care about security type stories. 

But this lack of planning has created a mistrust. It’s created a scarring and a cracking in the image of Israel as this powerful, competent country. But this lack of planning has also made us completely unable to put forth anything that could deal with the serious humanitarian crisis. It’s both militarily humanitarian. You just see these 48-hour cycles. 

And so I’m wondering whether there is this PTSD that has taken over Netanyahu because he was the master planner, the master strategist. And now he’s just keeping the pieces together to get through another day. And so yes, I’m not gonna let my people go to Washington. What’s that gonna do? Yeah, for one day, that’s gonna make some of your supporters feel, yes, we’re strong, we told them. 

It’ll give you, it’s like here, you know, I’m a grandfather and I love being a grandfather. It’s one of the great joys of my life. And I love giving my grandchildren candy. I love it. I give them candy and I give them sweets and treats. And it’s just, you know, you come to Baba, you know, my children, I have to deal with a long-term strategy. I have to create this joy. I have to create joy and love and happiness. Grandparents aren’t supposed to be strategists. 

But it’s like, I feel like he’s, what did he do? Biden said no to us and so he’s gonna scream and he’s gonna show, he’s gonna strut. So, okay, you gave us 24 hours and you’ll see, by the way, he’s gonna back down, because Netanyahu always backs down. But the greatest flaw is this lack of vision, this lack of planning, and a war such as Gaza, with its moral and strategic and international challenges needs a plan. And the reason why I’m pointing to this is because that’s what I think we Jews have, we friends of Israel, we have to start talking about. What are your plans?

Yossi: There’s a deeper tragedy here, which is at precisely the moment when we need a government of moral authority, of basic moral credibility in the world among the people of Israel. We have the least morally credible government in our history. And the government that Netanyahu created last year is now, we’re now paying the price for that.

And the irony is, and this is something that I find is generally not fully appreciated abroad, is that the far right is actually not in charge of this war. Smotrich and Ben Gvir are not part of the inner war cabinet. And if you look at the people in the war cabinet, with the exception of Netanyahu, 

Donniel: Good people.

Yoossi: They’re all morally credible figures, absolutely. Which is why, one important reason why the broad support for this war has held among Israelis. And I’m on a lecture tour now in North America. And what I hear over and over again is the saying, Netanyahu’s war. And I try to explain to people, this is actually not Netanyahu’s war. This is my war. This is the war of the people of Israel. We mobilized ourselves on October 8th. We didn’t wait for any inspiration from this government. We don’t care what this government has to say. I don’t know anyone who listens to Netanyahu’s inspirational press conferences. We are motivating ourselves. 

And I really think, Donniel, this is one of Israel’s greatest moments in the sense that it’s the maturation of the Israeli public. We went to war without the most basic trust in the decency, in the trustworthiness of our prime minister. And I don’t think in the past, Israelis could have gone to war believing that their prime minister is a scoundrel. And yet we did.

Donniel: You know, it’s so interesting that, and yet we did. You know, Netanyahu finally came out last week in support for humanitarian aid. So you know what supporting humanitarian aid meant for Netanyahu? Giving a speech in which he said, yes, humanitarian aid is a necessary commitment that we have to make. Why, did he say? So that we could win the war.

Yossi: Yeah, that’s at the extent of his morality.

Donniel: You see, but because once you talk in other terms, you have to plan, you have to put in place processes, you have to put in place some notion about what’s going to happen in Gaza tomorrow. Other people are putting forth plans, you know that? Gantz, the Americans, the head of internal security for the Palestinians put forth a plan together with the Jordanians and the Gulf States to train 10,000 Gazans, to arm them, train them in Jordan so that they could move into Gaza, and begin to constitute some form of a police force that will be able to control Hamas. What is Netanyahu’s response? Not a counter plan. His response is no. It’s just no. I think it’s just this no-ness. 

Anyway, Yossi, I want to ask something really hard of you before we conclude. I can’t imagine our audience is going to be feeling very good today. Maybe validated. Could you give us some something positive, maybe part of what you said in the last, in your last remark? So where do we go from here? We have a prime minister who’s not planning. We have a prime minister who doesn’t seem to, who doesn’t have any moral credibility or voice, who is ignoring warnings. 

You know, on October 8th, Yossi, we were able to help as best as we could. And the army got stepped forward and did what it needs to do. So where does that leave us right now, Yossi?

Yossi: Well, first of all, the good political news is, and you and I touched on this in our last episode, is that Netanyahu has lost the confidence of the overwhelming majority of Israelis. His approval level is something like 15%. 15% of Israelis want him to remain in power after the war. So one way or another, we’re seeing the end. 

Now, it’s true that I’ve been eulogizing Netanyahu for years, and there’s nothing more dangerous in Israeli politics than predicting the political demise of Netanyahu. Still, there really is no recovery from this series of disasters. But I think that there is something deeper here, Donniel, and that is that our longest-lasting prime minister is holding up a mirror to Israeli society. This is the guy who so many Israelis admired. And it’s true that in the past he was a more cautious leader. He had great economic achievements, very questionable security achievements and in retrospect those security achievements were exposed as empty.

Nevertheless, there was something in Netanyahu’s bluster that Israeli society responded to in a positive way. We wanted a tough guy. We wanted a guy who could stand up to the world, who was perceived to, on the one hand, who could get along with the world, and on the other hand, could set red lines. And we like the fact that we had a prime minister who could sit with Putin, right? The Netanyahu himself in one of his recent election campaigns promoted himself with giant banners of him shaking hands with Trump, with Putin, all the world’s worst leaders. And what was the slogan? Liga acheret, another league. And what was that really saying? We want an Israeli leader who can play not just in prime time, but can play with the worst of the world’s leaders, can sit with them, smoke a cigar, and be man-to-man. 

And this is where this has led to. And the self-reckoning that we need to do as a people is, is this the face of the Jewish people that we’re really comfortable with?

Donniel: So what you’re saying, and I thank you for what you’re saying, is what I want to take away from this is not the dumping on Netanyahu alone, but every society gets the leaders that it deserves. Well, it’s time for us to stand up and say we deserve better. 

And if I would just add one other line. Netanyahu was creating a vacuum. Just like Saul did. The reality is, Saul was replaced, but he created a vacuum. And the people were running around and his jealousy was, he became jealous of David, because the masses were gathering around David. So I’m not looking for another David, but I want to maybe, you know, hope together with our audience. There’s a vacuum. Start reading, start looking, start thinking of plans, start thinking of your opinions. I don’t care what the Israeli government is saying. Don’t feel that you have to believe A, B, or C. Right now is the time for you to articulate what’s your position on where Israel should go? What is your position? And learn, what is your position about Rafah? What is your position about humanitarian aid? What’s your position about the future of Israel? This is not a time for you to say, yes, my job is to support my leaders. Now there is a vacuum. 

It’s time for all of us to step up. And I want to apologize if we’ve upset anybody, but this is an upsetting week. And maybe some measure of commiseration together will give us some joy and peace. 

Charlie, have a good life. 

Friends, this is, for the sake of heaven. This is a prayer, but this is still Israel at war. Be well.

For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute about what’s unfolding right now, sign up for a newsletter in the show notes and subscribe to this podcast everywhere podcasts are available. See you next time, and thanks for listening.