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When the Israel Day Parade Is More Than a Parade Transcript

Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.

Donniel: Why was this parade different than every other parade? Why is it more than a parade?

 

Yossi: The Israel Day Parade is a good measure of what’s changed in Jewish life since October 7th, because in the past there was nothing more innocuous than the Israel Day Parade. It was a celebration and it was a feel-good experience and suddenly the Israel Day parade is a little dangerous. 

 

I heard that there were groups that flew in from around the country to be there. So this was a statement. And the question is what kind of statement? What were Jews saying by showing up in such larger numbers? By showing up so passionately?

 

Donniel: So much of the Israel conversation is a conversation about the problems, the questions. And I think the parade’s power is to say I’m allowed to have an unmediated relationship. You spoke about defiance. I want to speak about pride. I want to speak about a relationship. My relationship is not just through the problems alone.

 

Hi friends. This is Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute, and this is our podcast, For Heaven’s Sake, in collaboration with Ark Media. Today is Tuesday, June 2nd, and our podcast is shaped by Sunday, by Israel’s Day Parade. And we’re calling today’s episode “When Israel Day Parade is More Than a Parade.”

 

Now, it’s clear to everybody from the numbers of people who showed up to the extent of the coverage, not just in the Jewish news in New York and also in the general, non-Jewish news, and as well the extensive coverage in Israel that, you know, like we say at the beginning of the Seder, Mah Nishtanah Halayla hazeh, how was this night different from every other night? You know, how was this parade different?

 

Everybody knew that this parade was different, whether it was from Mamdani’s boycotting of the parade to the whole place of Israel. Today in America, in the world, the sense of Israel and Jewishness being under attack, it was clear that this parade was more than a normal parade. That was clear. 

 

And so we want to talk about, what did this parade mean? How did we understand it? How do we understand it, both for those who were there, but also how do we understand it in a larger context of the reality of Jewish life and of Zionism in this very, very fraught and difficult times? 

 

So, Yossi, how is this parade different? Why was this parade different than every other parade? Why is it more than a parade?

 

Yossi: The Israel Day Parade is a good measure of what’s changed in Jewish life since October 7th. Because in the past, there was nothing more innocuous than the Israel Day Parade. There was a celebration and it was a feel-good experience. It was harmless. There was no edge to it. It was one of the few Jewish events that actually felt powerful, you know, neutral in some way, all embracing marching bands.

 

And then, and suddenly, the Israel Day Parade is a little dangerous. It’s also dangerous physically. There was the unprecedented level of security. And today all, you and I, you know, we’re graduates of the parade. We were talking before the podcast. We both had extensive experience being at the parade. And you know that there was never any security in terms of entry points. You show up, it’s a parade on 5th Ave. 

 

There were only four permitted entry points today in the current parade. You couldn’t stand on the side of Central Park. That entire side was blocked and an unprecedented number of police.

 

And you mentioned Mamdani’s boycott. I heard that they were groups that flew in from around the country to be there. So this was a statement. The question is, what kind of statement? What were Jews saying by showing up in larger numbers, by showing up so passionately? 

 

I think that first of all, there was this sense of this time of defiance, of pushing back. We will not allow Israel to become criminalized. We will not allow Israel to become controversial, at least within the mainstream Jewish community. I think that was the primary message here.

 

And I’m just responding, you know, almost stream of consciousness, this sense of the parade as being the expression of the post-Holocaust success of the Jewish people. That was really what the parade meant for my generation. It was our coming out and coming out, not the way we did it. Soviet jewelry demonstrations, which were edgy, which were protesting. And it was still Jewish angst. There was no angst associated with the Israel Day Parade. And now, after October 7th, it’s the focal point of Jewish angst. But not only angst.

 

I was watching the parade. I’ve never done this before. I never took the parade seriously enough to sit and watch it being live streamed. And I did this time. And there was a terrific float of Mamdani and his wife. Giant float. And they’re waving Israeli and American flags. And what I loved about it was the humor, the good naturedness of it. And they weren’t caricatures. They were very lifelike expressions of Mamdani and his wife. There was nothing vicious about it. It was, say, this is a celebration, of course Israel is going to win. And you could boycott us. But we’re responding with humor. That was something of the spirit of the old parade, and it managed to keep that sense of optimism despite the edginess.

 

And one last point to the which is when I was watching the parade on YouTube, I thought of my friend Ted Comet, who was the founder of the parade. Ted died this past year at age 101, as sharp as ever. And he and I had a weekly phone call to just talk about the Jewish world. And Ted was an honorary chairman of the parade until he died, was on the board of Federation, the Joint at age 101. 

 

There’s something of the spirit of Ted that I felt, the defiance. Ted was very much a post-Holocaust Jew in his late teens. He went to Europe in 1946 to volunteer to work for the Joint Distribution Committee, met Elie Wiesel as a 16 year old boy, and adopted, in effect adopted Wiesel and brought him into prominence into the American Jewish community.

 

So Ted is this legendary figure who helped shape the American Jewish community as we knew it growing up. Always a kind of behind the scenes man. And I just wanted to give him that last kavod, that last respect.

 

You know, there are certain people, your father is one of them. There are others. And we live in their imagination. We live in the Jewish world that they created. And Ted Comet was one of them.

 

Donniel: Thank you for, for that, Yossi, and giving all of us a chance, also, to give honor to a great person who many of us didn’t know. So thank you for that gift.

 

You know, my experience with the New York Israel Day Parade was during the 11 years post war of Lebanon that I moved to America, my 2 year stint in America, which lasted 11 years from ’84 to ’95. And I remember when I was living in Englewood—Israel Day Parade. Now then, and and now as well, it’s populated principally by day schools and their parents and others. But those are the buses like, and you got to go.

 

I felt for the first Israel Day Parade as an Israeli, I thought, you know, okay, that’s like the second day of Yuntiff, of the holiday. Like, I don’t have to do this in America. Like I’m Israeli. I don’t have to go to the Israeli Day parade. I, like, I don’t need the Israel Day Parade to remind me of Israel’s importance or my feelings. It was like miluim, it was like reserve duty. You got to show up. Like, you could be shamed for not going to the Israel Day Parade. Like you had to go, right? Everybody went, your kids were going and you’re not going to go with your kids and the whole thing. So it was like, okay, so I went and I remember going, and I said, hi, this? Like, so I walked a little bit. It was just like, when could I leave? It, like, it sort of felt like shul was going on too long. So it was a very—

 

Yossi: Donniel, it’s one of the reasons you’re my favorite rabbi.

 

Donniel: It was like, it was like, you know, okay, you got to do it. okay, I’m showing up. Then we got to show up. There was very much that feeling. That’s the way it started. And really for 11 years. And then, thank God, I could get back to Israel and actually live in Israel where I belong.

 

Yossi: Where everyday life is just one big parade.

 

Donniel: Well, of course, it’s one big joy, but I appreciate it very much. The seriousness of how in this case, American Jewry, or North American Jewry was trying to maintain its relationship with Israel. And I want to come back. It was, that, it’s just like all holidays outside of Israel. There’s nothing natural about the calendar when you’re living outside of Israel. There’s nothing natural or indigenous. It’s a foreign place and you have to lay claim to something, a place for it. And I very much appreciated the seriousness of it.

 

But I felt, as I was reading the reports and speaking—you know, my son is living in Riverdale now for a couple of years. That’s, he’s the co-director of Camp Ramah Canada. And why he’s living in Riverdale, that’s another story. But he’s, June, July, August, he’s in Canada. The rest of the year he’s travelling and working.

 

Like, I heard from him that there was a sense that this year the parade wasn’t just reserve duty. It wasn’t just what we got to do as we go with our kids because the school takes the kids. But this year, of course we weren’t going to miss the parade. Why? And my daughter-in-law said, of course we’re going to the parade, because there was a sense that I have a right to be proud of Israel despite everything that’s going on. It was like laying claim to a pride and to a feeling that I’m allowed to have which doesn’t have to be mediated through other people’s feelings.

 

You know, so much of what we experience all the time is how do you feel? How’s anti-Semitism? How’s the anti Zionist onslaught? So much of the Israel conversation is a conversation about the problems, the questions, and I think the parade’s powers to say, I’m allowed to have an unmediated relationship. I’m not solving the problems. 

 

You spoke about defiance. I want to speak about pride. I want to speak about a relationship. My relationship is not just through the problems alone, and I have a right to that. And so the unmediated sense of I could lay claim to my Israel that I care about, and almost on one day, like Tal would say here in Israel, I want to leave all the problems aside.

 

Yossi: I was thinking of exactly that, Donniel, which is how Israelis relate to our Independence Day. For one day a year, we leave all of the arguments and problems aside, and we just celebrate. And in a way, the Israel Day parade is the American equivalent.

 

Donniel: It’s an inane thing. You walked out 5th Ave, and you have this whole thing, but it’s just, here I am. You don’t dictate my feelings. There’s something very important about that, that my surrounding doesn’t define the way I relate to everything all the time. I’m allowed to own my own categories, my own relationships, and a simple parade allows that.

 

But I think there was another dimension that I feel is really, really important, especially this year. And I want to read to you a list because as I was thinking about the parade, I wanted to know how many major national ethnic identity parades are there? How many parades does New York have? Let me just read you a list.

 

There’s the European National Identity, Saint Patrick’s Day Parade, Columbus Day Parade, German American Steuben Parade. I hope I said that right. Greek Independence Day Parade, National Tartan Day Parade—that’s Scottish. Pulaski Day Parade for the Polish. For those of you who didn’t know, Columbus is Italian, Saint Patrick’s Irish. 

 

Then we have the Latin American and Caribbean parades, Puerto Rican Day parade, Dominican Day parade. You have Chinese Lunar Day parade. You have Philippine Independence Day parade. You have Korean Day parade, Israel Day parade. And this is only a partial list. This is a list. This is a riot, you know? There’s a lot of parades. And I’m wondering, how many of them Mamdani’s going to boycott. You know, like how many of them?

 

Yossi: I’m sure he’ll be at every one.

 

Donniel: Oh, no, no, no. There must be somebody’s parade that aggravates him for whatever reason. You know, maybe the National Tartan or the okh vey shtus one. But whatever it is, I’m reading this and I’m saying, do you know what? When you look at this list, and this is only a partial list, New York has parades all the time. And this is the 5th Ave ones. There’s parades that are in other parts of New York.

 

I think part of what this whole list signifies is what Horace Kallen in his article on the meaning of American, this at the beginning of the 20th century, he wrote this seminal article which he spoke about America as a nation of nationalities. That when you come to America you don’t have to give up your prior identity. Quite to the contrary, it is an expression of your Americanness. It deepens your Americanness and it is a source of strength and vitality.

 

So when you look at all of these parades, what they really signify is America as a country that celebrates multiple loyalties. That to have multiple loyalties is not to be anti American, but that American loyalty is the loyalty that shares who you are from where you came from. You can have multiple loyalties at the same time. They don’t contradict each other.

 

And part of what’s happening, and I think Mamdani expresses that the only ones who aren’t allowed of dual loyalties are Jews. Somehow our dual loyalties are signs of disloyalty to America. And like this whole parade list, I’m putting it up for the YouTube people. You know, this whole parade list is, it gives lie to that whole concept. And I think what the parade—in addition to the sense of, I want to define my relationship with Israel—I think this parade is a declaration that we Jews are allowed to have dual loyalties, just like the Irish and the Poles and the Dominicans and the Puerto Ricans and the Chinese and the Koreans. I’m not going to go through everybody else again, on the list—I’m allowed to, and it’s not a contradiction and I’m not going to buy into this notion that somehow if I love Israel, I’m anti-American.

 

Part of all those attacks, whether I’m violating American values or I’m violating my loyalty. We are allowed to march like everybody else. And that’s why—this is so New York, because New York is a manifestation of Jewish pride and power. This is not a small little community. We’re millions in New York. We’re going to march just like everybody else.

 

And I think this principle of the legitimacy of Jewish dual loyalty that yes, I love Israel, I love America. I’m going to have both flags in my synagogue. I’m allowed to pray for the well-being of Israel along with the well-being of America. And my particular identity is exactly what I get to celebrate in America because the two don’t contradict America’s a nation of nationalities.

 

And I felt this year this parade signified the right of the Jewish people to this dual loyalty.

 

Yossi: Donniel, it’s such an important insight. And to just expand on that, what we’re really seeing is something that would have been inconceivable a few years ago, which is that there is now a serious debate going on in America about whether Jews have the right to define themselves, as you frame it, through the lens of dual loyalty, which was accepted over the last two generations, love of Israel is part of your Jewish identity. And this notion of dual loyalty, which did hover over American Jewry at an earlier stage—

 

Donniel: During an anti-Semitic era.

 

Yossi: Yes, in the 1930s, really disappeared or virtually disappeared. And now it’s—

 

Donniel: And you know, and if I could just add one thing, because as you were saying it, I remembered. When Mamdani marches at Saint Patrick’s, Columbus, German or what, any other day. He’s not saying or talking about his relationship and feelings about Germanists and about the Poles today. Is he pro the current Prime Minister or president to Poland, whatever it is? He’s not talking about his relationship to Poland. He’s talking about his relationship to New Yorkers who have relationships with Poland.

 

Yossi: And it’s even worse than that, because what Mamdani is effectively saying is I have the right to tell New York Jews what their legitimate Jewish identity is. I will support you as a religion, but don’t start playing this game of the Jews as a nation.

 

Donniel: The Jews right now, what happens is, is that I could respect Mamdani’s beliefs or whatever they may be, but marching, being a mayor of New York is to say, you know, you choose your home here. Now, to be home in New York means to be home with your dual loyalties, just like every other crazy parade, Like we’re the only ones? So I think this year this issue came to the fore and I felt—

 

Yossi: I think that’s right, now, that’s, I think that’s a really, really important point.

 

And the irony here is that New York is now the battleground, right for determining the legitimacy of the two flags on the bimah of American synagogues, of whether Jews have the right to define themselves on their own terms. And you’re right, that’s what the parade was about. That’s what this parade was about.

 

Donniel: And he’s taking the lead. And you could see it all across candidates in America.

 

Yossi: That’s right.

 

Donniel: You know, it’s, are you Mamdani-like, you know, this is the fight against my right to my loyalties. So yes, it was an interesting year. 

 

Yossi: Because, you know, that fight is generally framed in the Jewish community in political terms. And of course there’s a very important political struggle going on because if official New York becomes hostile to Israel—and we’re not there yet, because there was a very impressive line up of New York politicians, past and current, who came to the parade in defiance of Mamdani.

 

So the political struggle that’s happening in New York over Israel is very important for the future of Jewish political clout in America, because if official New York turns hostile to Israel, that will be a signal for the political system throughout the country. But what you’re framing it and actually in an even more interesting way, which is it’s a struggle over the future of American Jewish identity. That’s what Mamdani versus the parade really represents, right?

 

Donniel: So what else, in your mind, what are the implications of this parade?

 

Yossi: So I was struck by something you were saying earlier, Donniel, about how for the first time the Israeli media really paid attention to the parade. And of course, they paid attention because they understand the political implications of the struggle.

 

But Israelis generally are missing the identity elements here. So I want to expand on the point you raised, but take it from the Israeli side. What’s our responsibility? How should we be responding to a parade whose theme was proud to be American and proud to be Zionist? That was actually the theme of this parade. It’s in the background of America’s 250th year. You know, that was a very much part of the parade. We are proud to be Americans and we’re proud to be Zionists.

 

What do Israelis do with that American Jewish pride in being Americans? And today there’s nothing self-evident about that pride because American Jewish identity, this hybrid identity is under threat. And I feel that we and Israel have a responsibility to affirm the Americanness of American Jews. 

 

And by this, I want to just say a word to the wider diaspora among our listeners. I’m speaking about America because Donniel and I are from there.

 

Donniel: We’re talking about this parade.

 

Yossi: And the parade is there, right? But I mean the right of Jews anywhere in the world to define themselves and that Israel, Israelis should celebrate the Diaspora. And I see that as an expression of 21st century Zionism. 

 

20th century Zionism had to be Israel-centric in an obsessive way because we were trying to establish the state and we were trying to establish the permanence of the state. 

 

And at this point, for me, what Zionism means, and we touched on this in one of our recent conversations, Donniel. 21st century Zionism means an affirming yes. Israel is the center point of Jewish life, the conceptual center point and the practical center point.

 

But to celebrate the diaspora, especially when it’s under assault and Mandani boycotting a parade of American Jews celebrating their Americanness and their love of Israel simultaneously, that should tell Israelis something about what this moment means for American Jews and for the diaspora generally.

 

The diaspora is under assault, and we need to be affirming not just the legitimacy of the diaspora, but the essential nature of the diaspora in Jewish identity. And this goes back 4000 years. It goes back to Abraham being called by God to come to the land. And then a few years later, he and Sarah are suddenly out of the land. They’re wandering again. And this back and forth movement is built into Jewish identity.

 

We are a people with a homeland at the center and with the diaspora. And we’ve always been that. And the parade for me really in some ways really reinforced that. Celebrate not only the American Jews waving Israeli flags on 5th Ave. Celebrate the American Jews waving the American flag. Because that’s something, again, that I don’t think we can take for granted.

 

Donniel: Israelis are so far, it’s one of the tragedies. Israelis are so far from what you’re talking about. The Israel Day parade is about waving the Israeli flag, like that imagery, for so many Israelis, and for this government, even 10 times more. It’s about—to what extent are you going to support us? 

 

In recent polls, you see it. The Minister of Diaspora just analyzed this as well, that while Israelis consider themselves more and more Jews and not just Israelis, their perspective for world Jewry is essentially your job is to support us and be quiet. That transparency—and I think part of the challenge as we move forward, I think a different government, there are figures there who are open to a much greater level of sensitivity. But as we move forward, we have to add that dimension.

 

Now, it’s interesting, and one of the reasons why it’s so important, and I learned this from our colleague Elana Stein Hain. You know, Israelis have never really seen world Jewry. They never really see them. You know, you’re supposed to make aliyah. You shouldn’t be there. You’re dying. And if you’re still there, you’re somehow redeemed by supporting me. Like that somehow gives you your very legitimacy.

 

But for a long period of, at least, especially since 1967, despite the insult, world Jewry still stayed in the relationship because they got a lot out of it. It was easy to be pro-Israel. Today much of world Jewry is under assault because of Israel. So it behooves Israelis to ask themselves, so nu, what is your responsibility? How do you see people? How do you change? The relationship can’t just be sustained any more by what world Jewry gets from Israel—the pride, the sense of power, identity, Holy Land, all the various meanings you actually have to work in a relationship beforehand.

 

You could say I could be a creep to you, but you get something out of the relationship. It’s fine. It’s like a spouse who’s obnoxious, but I give you a credit card. You know, it’s like you get a credit card, just shut up. You know, you got what you need here that you’re not getting it. So we have to actually work on the relationship. 

 

So, you know, 13 members of Knesset came to the parade. But what was so ironic is that they came to the parade, but they didn’t leave Israel. They didn’t really see the meaning of this parade and I think it’s a great challenge for Israel as we move forward.

 

Yossi: Donniel, you just raised the point of the 13 Knesset members. I wanted to ask you what your response was to Smotrich showing up at the parade. Now, of course, post-parade has become a bit of a mini scandal in American Jewish conversation. And any thoughts about that?

 

Donniel: Oy, what can I tell you, I just wish that Israeli politicians’ commitment to showing up for world Jewry wouldn’t just summarize being, “I stand with you in the midst of your anti-Semitism.” That, I just wish that they would understand the complexity of Jewish identity and actually carry it on here in Israel.

 

So when you have an Israeli member of Knesset, May Golan, who attacks Reform Jews, you know, the majority of Jews in North America for—what did she say? Oh, “continue giving bar mitzvahs to dogs in what you call temples or synagogues or whatever.” It’s like you have no idea what they’re talking about.

 

So the Israel Day parade is very safe, especially this year. You know, Israelis show up. I’m going to lead the pride. I’m going to lead the fight for, you know, to protect you. So I just wish that they would expand it to a richer understanding of what it means.

 

You know, why Smotrich showed up. I, I don’t want to get into his soul. I’ll leave him whatever reason it might be. But I just wish that the spirit of what this parade demands would show up so that when May Golan says this, Betzalel Smotrich would be the first one to get up and to say, how dare you speak about my family this way? How dare you? And instead, from the coalition, nobody says anything.

 

The only one who does is the ambassador to America who actually had to, you know, and, and it might be something that he feels. But this is what you’re talking about. The parade, if it’s not just a parade, it can’t just be a parade for Israelis either. It’s not just a place you show up. It’s a place where you learn and bring it back home. So now, Yossi, any last thoughts?

 

Yossi: Just that participants in the parade were expressing their pride in Israel, and I felt proud of American Jews and I felt proud in their capacity to still be celebrating publicly in the courage they showed to show up. And who would have ever imagined that it would take courage to show up to the Israel Day Parade? I felt very close to the community that I grew up in and really felt great love for American Jews.

 

Donniel: Beautiful. Thank you. Maybe if this year I was there, it wouldn’t have felt like reserve duty. This year, the Israeli Day parade was more than just a parade.

 

Yossi, it was a pleasure thinking about this.

 

Yossi: Great to be with you.

 

Donniel: And to be with you. Thank you, Yos.