Waiting Transcript

Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.

Donniel: Hi friends, this is Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, For Heaven’s Sake, Israel at War, a collaboration between the Hartman Institute and Ark Media. And today is day 648.

Before we get to our theme for today, I just wanted to alert our listeners to a new podcast from the Hartman Institute from our dear colleague, Elana Stein Hain, her podcast, TEXTing, there’s a new series which has been launched. It’s a series that deals with the big dilemmas facing North American Jews in conversation with classic and modern Torah texts. Elana, who was our partner for the first year of For Heaven’s Sake, is just one of the great lights of the Jewish world. And she’s a remarkable person. And the way she reads Jewish texts and learns is just… do yourself a favor. Check out TEXTing. It’ll be a net benefit for you.

And now let’s turn to our theme for today. We were struggling with it a little bit. And we came up with a theme which we called “Waiting” because it’s really where we are right now. There’s been so much action. Wars and bombs and running into shelters.

And we’ve shifted from this energy and like, you almost couldn’t leave the news. You wanted to know what was happening. All these things, the events, everything was changing, trips to America. We had to delay. We’re wondering when to do it because when is the next news going to drop and how is the next news drop going to change everything that we have to talk about?

And now we’re in waiting mode. We’re waiting for a lot of things. It’s almost like it’s the quiet before the storm. We’re waiting to see if there’s going to be a hostage deal. We’re waiting to see what is the deal that’s even going to be put forth. And we want to talk about that. What does it look like? We’re now waiting to see whether this government is going to fall. The Haredi draft exemption.

Yossi: The Ultra-Orthodox.

Donniel: The Ultra—every time. You always do it.

Yossi: I get complaints from people. You say words in Hebrew, oh, you know, what do you think? It’s a private club.

Donniel: Haredi is not a Hebrew word anymore.

Yossi: It’s true.

Donniel: But the draft exemption, is it going to come through? Is it not? People are waiting to see whether the government is going to vote for an exemption for the sake of its own survival, which would violate very deeply. It’s beyond even the ethos, the core sensibility of the country right now. And we’re waiting to see whether there’s going to be new elections. If this government is about to fall, and we’ll get into those details, who’s going to appear? Is it going to be an election with the same forces as somebody else going to emerge?

There’s tremendous uncertainty. It’s not that we’re feeling anxiety at the uncertainty. It’s just, we’re waiting. And in our podcast, we wanted to spell out what are the central issues that we’re waiting to hear about. We’re waiting to understand, and we’re waiting to see how they unfold. And we’re waiting to see what are the various issues that are going to be all of a sudden central red lines, critical issues, because that’s part of this as it unfolds, new things emerge.

So let’s start with in many ways, the biggest waiting game right now. And that is the waiting game of Gaza. How do you understand the essential parts of this waiting game?

Yossi: Well, Donniel, first of all, I think one reason why we had a difficult time coming up with a topic this week is because the very condition of waiting is so amorphous. And so we realize that that itself is the topic. What is it like to live in that condition of waiting, dare one say, expectation and with the tantalizing possibility of the fall of the government, I am feeling a certain expectation now. I haven’t allowed myself to feel that in Gaza yet, because I, well, I don’t trust the government. I don’t trust the prime minister to do the right thing, to do what 75 plus percent of the country desperately wants, which is a hostage deal and an end to the war.

Donniel: But what is that? They’re now talking about the 60 days. This is the 60 day ceasefire. Nobody’s yet—the end of the war is almost messianic. The idea is, let’s sign a 60 day, 10 hostages alive are going to come back at the end of the 60 days, 18 dead hostages will be returned. And from the second day of the hostage deal, negotiations on a ceasefire will begin.

And I don’t even know if this government could talk about or if the gaps between Israel and Hamas and our expectations are so great, whether the final deal is even achievable. But this 60 days, what are the issues that we’re waiting to see unfold?

Yossi: Well, obviously the hostages and what some of the hostage families and former hostages have been warning is that if you break this up and you keep 10 hostages for the very end, it’s God forbid a death sentence. So there is that fear. We’ll get 10 hostages back and what will be the fate of the last 10?

Donniel: Do you know, and you mentioned that if I could interrupt for a moment, there’s another aspect that was put into this waiting, which I don’t know if it’s fair. They’re calling the picking of the 10 a selectia. And selectia is a term which goes back to the Holocaust of who do you pick to live and who do you pick to die? And it’s almost as if this selectia picking is a fundamentally immoral act, but I don’t think that’s a fair…

Yossi: No, no, I don’t like the Holocaust analogy. I don’t like Holocaust analogies in general.

Donniel: What do you want us to do? Especially in relation to this war. We’re not going to get everybody. So you’re going to have to pick 10. Is it better than something? Of course it is. But like how it’s going to unfold has a lot of anxiety.

Yossi: But it’s also an expression of the abyss between the majority of Israelis and where the government is at. The majority of Israelis are saying we want an end to the war. We want all of them back. Not in stages. The time of stages is over. We’re not there anymore. And so there’s this sense of acute anxiety that the country is feeling.

Donniel: But the end of the war option would require Hamas and Israel to agree on some vision of Gaza, which I don’t think that agreement yet is even possible. That’s why I don’t even know what’s going to be at the second stage. Because why should Hamas agree to something that’s against their interest? And why should Israel agree to a ceasefire with Hamas still in power? That’s a legitimate argument. The gaps are still huge. So we want something, but it’s unachievable.

So what we’re waiting to see, what this 60-day story is now, Israel in this 60-day story has also set lines. It’s set lines. We’re not going to give up the Morag Corridor. We want to develop a humanitarian city. We want to create security zones all around Gaza. We want to be able to move in and out with our troops whenever we believe it’s necessary. There’s a whole list of things.

And so part of what I think we’re waiting for is to see, like at the end of the day, all these red lines and declarations that Israel gave—are we going to stay by them? Are we going to stand by them? Or are we going to change our minds? Which one of these do you feel is the most uncertain?

Yossi: Well, I’ll tell you what’s giving me sleepless nights. And that’s what you mentioned a moment ago, the so-called humanitarian city. That’s what this government is calling it. And it sounds, frankly, Orwellian to me, to concentrate hundreds of thousands of Palestinians with the stated goal of encouraging them to leave Gaza, risks jeopardizing the most basic moral foundation of this war.

Now, listeners know that I have been upholding and defending this war as necessary as, in essence, a just and unavoidable war whose goal was to deny—two goals. One was to deny Hamas a base on our borders. And the other was to deny terrorism immunity. You can’t hide behind your civilian casualties, appeal to world opinion, and in that way, have a kind of protection from the IDF. And I feel that that’s a moral issue. And I’ve said that repeatedly here.

But this is what’s causing me sleepless nights and an acute sense of expectation in the most negative sense: If we begin that process of effectively expelling Palestinians, when you encourage people to leave, what are the tools you’re going to use? Then you risk retroactively undoing the legitimacy of this war.

And I look at this government. I said, “Do I trust Smotrich, Ben Gvir, for that matter, Netanyahu, Katz, our defense minister? This is a coalition of the amoral and the immoral, the political cynics and the fanatical ideologues. Do we entrust this very delicate next stage of the Gaza war to these people?” And I can’t tell you, Donniel, it’s tearing me apart. And so my anxiety, my hope for the ceasefire, is that it will, first of all, bring however many hostages home, and secondly, forestall this disastrous next movie.

Donniel: I feel bad that you’re staying up at night, even though you actually have sleep problems.

Yossi: I do. I do. And it hasn’t been that bad lately. All things considered.

Donniel: All things considered. I think you could actually sleep about your concern, but not sleep for another reason.

Yossi: Cause you don’t think it’s going to happen.

Donniel: I think the whole idea—and this is what keeps me up at night—is I think it’s a farce. As people talk about it, $10-15 billion ranges between dollars and shekel, and with the dollar-shekel rate, it’s getting closer. But with Trump tariffs, the dollar is very low. $10 billion, $5 billion, some astronomical amount of money. A year, like what are you going to build? Intensity for 800,000 people? What about sewage and water and infrastructure? You’re just going to put tents in. What is it like? You’re going into overnight camping? It’s just the whole thing.

Yossi: And the IDF has told the government it’s not workable, which is another way of saying, don’t put us in a situation where we’re going to be guilty of war crimes.

Donniel: And the army says it’s going to take a year. And Netanyahu critiques the army and says, give me a plan where I can get it in six months. I think the whole thing is a farce. This is what aggravates me. A, it’s put forth as a way to keep Smotrich and Ben Gvir still in the coalition, because eventually we’re going to come to a ceasefire.

But this is one of those ideas, which lets the nationalist, ultra-nationalist, or the language of complete victory to be put forth. Yeah, we’re going to move people. We’re going to put it as if it’s going to be so easy. We’re going to set this up overnight. And then there’ll be a clear separation between Hamas terrorists, because no one’s going to get through, obviously, and the civilian populations. And then we’ll be able to hand out humanitarian aid. And if all we did, if the goal was to be able to create a separation between Hamas and Gazan civilians, leave it at that. Why say, and from here we’ll make possible the voluntary transfer of people?

Yossi: Because that’s what the far right wants.

Donniel: You see, so this is what—I’m waiting to see what we really care about. See, because part of what’s been happening is all these balloons are being put forth, which have almost nothing to do with the goals that I think we really need to achieve. It has to do with: how does this play with person A or with party B? How do I still keep my image going? And we already know, for example, it’s been reported. In order to create this city, the key issue is the Morag Corridor.

Now, none of us know what the new map that was presented in Qatar was. But at least according to the news, the new map says Netanyahu saying, “You know what? I could give up on Morag.” But Morag is north of Rafiach, and it basically is what enables the creation.

Yossi: So if you give up on Morag, there’s no city.

Donniel: So what are you even doing? Like, we’re just… what I’m waiting for is for Israel’s government to decide what does it really want? You’re constantly presenting these red lines. And when you read the New York Times profound critique of the way Netanyahu has used politics at multiple stages to prolong the war. And these are things that you and I have talked about. I’m not saying that every one of the things that was in the article was correct, but over and over again over the last 300 and…

Yossi: Well, let’s just say that article did not contain any real revelations for anyone who’s been following the situation.

Donniel: So we’ve been seeing it over and over again that Netanyahu comes and all of a sudden some new dramatic strategic issue is put forth that without this Israel is going to be endangered. That we… this is a new red line. I’m waiting to see even in the first stage, what are our real red lines? Because we know Hamas certainly by the first ceasefire is not disappearing. We certainly haven’t destroyed all of Hamas. We have reports that they are rebuilding some of their elite units. They’re rebuilding the military infrastructure. They’re able to function better and better their officers. They’re retraining them. They’re able to ambush more effectively. Soldiers are dying. What is your plan?

Yossi: Do you know what’s interesting, Donniel, thinking about Netanyahu and his relationship with the Israeli mainstream for the first year or so of the war, regardless of whatever his own personal interests and machinations were, his needs were in harmony with what the Israeli public wanted. We all understood that Hamas and Hezbollah must be neutralized and pushed away from our border. We all agreed that Iran cannot achieve nuclear capabilities. Now we’re at the next stage…

Donniel: And that’s what I’m waiting for. That’s what I feel like I’m waiting. Exactly that.

Yossi: And Netanyahu, it seems to me, is treading water. Now he treads water very well.

Donniel: Unbelievably.

Yossi: Because he’s a tactician. He’s actually not a master of strategy, but of tactics.

Donniel: Yes, so I’m feeling that. That’s my waiting. But when I put it in the context of what your point was, in order to, in many ways, hide or preserve the government, hide what his real intent is for another week, another two weeks, he’s putting forth something that… I think already the legitimacy of the war around the world—we’ve lost. But this, even amongst your friends, how do you really justify this type of story? But that this could be a, what do they call it? A fake balloon or something?

Yossi: Trial.

Donniel: A trial balloon. Something that’s not well thought through. No coherent plan on how to do it. Probably non-implementable. And you’re throwing it out there with consequences, which are so profound. And so I’m almost waiting for all of this—I don’t know if I’m allowed to say bullshit. Is that a word you’re allowed to say on podcasts?

Yossi: If not, they’ll cut it out.

Donniel: They’ll cut it out. It’s like there’s just all this blah blah. I’m waiting because there’s hostages. I accept that you can’t get all of the hostages back, right now, in one deal. I would love it. But there’s Hamas. And what we want from Hamas, Hamas is not going to give us right now. So I don’t know how you’re going to resolve that problem. And if you could get 10, I’m willing to celebrate 10. I’m willing to celebrate that. That’s a great achievement. I’ll take it. I’ll take those 10 people alive, those families, all of it. And I know it’s not perfect. And I don’t know if anybody could come up with the solution right now with Hamas under the, because the reality is, is that our military pressure hasn’t brought Hamas to a position where it believes that surrender is a better option than continuing to fight. The bottom line is, is that has failed.

Yossi: Yeah, it has failed. And it was predictable. And in fact, it was predicted.

Donniel: By who?

Yossi: By the families of the hostages, by former hostages, they said, this is not going to work. And I think that the missing piece here is pressure from the Arab world and Hamas. And until we have a plan in place, so we have some kind of a political option through which we can entice Arab countries.

Donniel: Now you’re beginning, you know, you’re now you’re starting like me. It’s like I’m getting contagious.

Yossi: It’s starting to worry me.

Donniel: Because here it is, I’m sitting, I’m listening, and Yossi, like, once you know what it is, once you got deterrence back, you are military forces not as attractive to you. And you’ve done what you’ve won. You’re doing exactly what everybody, when are you willing to declare that you’ve won? And deterrence for you was the critical issue, because the next stage needs political and political is going to require here, how do you defeat Hamas? You don’t defeat Hamas by returning the hostages so that you could go now and fight completely that language again. Now we’re really going to go into all of Gaza, as if that’s going to make a difference.

It’s by creating political pressure where Hamas leaders are sitting in Gulf states, put your pressure on them, put your pressure on their money, get other Arab countries to get invested in restructuring Gaza, then you have that pressure. And then you can have the end of the war.

Yossi: You know, Donniel, we’ve been doing this now for so long that we’re starting to sound like each other. But let me use some more Donniel language. Yes, I believe we have regained our deterrence to a credible level. I don’t believe that we’ve won. I believe we have enough of a victory that we can then consider political options. And that’s the crucial Donniel piece. It’s enough of a victory.

Donniel: No, but it’s even more than that. Let me be a Donniel Donniel.

Yossi: You want to raise me a Donniel.

Donniel: I want to raise you a Danil.

I’ve been listening, call me back, again, we’re now part of Ark Media, but I was just listening to Ron Dermer and really a phenomenal podcast. And part of the problem and my disagreement with Dermer and with the school of thought and Netanyahu’s public perception until he signs the deal. And that’s part of what—I’m waiting. I’m waiting for him to show the difference between his rhetoric and the policies and then to actually say to us, look, you were actually correct from the beginning. Of course, everybody wants to get rid of Hamas. There’s a complete consensus that nobody wants to end the war and Hamas remains in power. That’s not even an option for anybody.

But who said the only way to ensure that Hamas is not in power is through military force? It’s through pressure of Arab countries, or at least trying other options. So we’re sort of in this waiting mode to see. We know Netanyahu and Dermer are cooking something. We know Whitcoff is cooking something. We know Trump is there. We know the Arab countries are there. We know Hamas doesn’t have enough of incentive to agree to a deal, nor is there enough… because there might not be enough pressure. And we’re waiting to see what are the red lines of our country, not the false red lines, not these cities and these plans and all this crap. Come on. And with unbelievable moral consequences.

Yossi: But you see, this is the problem, Donniel, is that let’s say it doesn’t happen. God willing, it won’t happen. But the damage has already been done to whatever is left of our good name. And for some people, it’s as if we’ve actually done it already.

Donniel: Of course, it’s… now it’s done. This has been driving me insane since two months since the war started. This self-destructive language that doesn’t even serve our security needs. And it’s all being put forth into the public discourse by the so-called security people. It’s driving me insane. So this is, you’re not sleeping. I’m not sleeping. This is one thing we’re waiting for. We’re waiting to see how it resolves. The other big waiting game now is the coalition.

Yossi: And it’s all, you know, of course, it’s all related. It’s all related.

Donniel: And if the Haredim are going to leave the coalition, if I can give a little bit of analysis for a second, they will leave the coalition because they have nowhere else better to go. So why would they leave the coalition? The only reason why they would leave the coalition, if they feel Netanyahu is about to make a move, that’s going to call for new elections anyway. And they would rather run in the next election outside of the government than in the government so that the next government, which might want to sit with them, they would actually recognize the Haredim, when they make conditions, they’re going to stand by them. There’s no reason for them to stay in a coalition that doesn’t fulfill its commitments to them.

Yossi: What do the Haredim need? First of all— there are a few questions here. What do they think they need? What do they think the Israeli public can tolerate? And how do they intend to bridge the gap?

Donniel: I think what the Haredim need…

Yossi: Because of—this, I’m sorry, because if this government can’t give them what they need, nobody can.

Donniel: I think what the Haredim need, they know they can’t have, or there’s no way that they could get what it is that they think they need. Which is what? What do they think? They need an Israeli society that believes that the security of Israel is enhanced by the studying of Torah.

Yossi: By the mass study of Torah, not just small.

Donniel: What they need is Israeli society to validate their ideology, to validate their new ideology, because it used to be, I don’t serve in the army, because I don’t want to fight for a Zionist, secularist, anti-Jewish enterprise. That was the original exemption. It had to do with an alienation from Zionism. Zionism is a secular enterprise. It violates God’s will in history. It has nothing to do with Jewish law. Redemption of Israel is going to be messianic. It’s not going to be by human force. All of these principles were our core Haredi principles, and in which the study of Torah surpasses all else within the tradition. And if for the religious Zionist settling the land of Israel shapes history, for the Haredi ideology, the study of Torah shapes history.

Yossi: It’s so interesting what you’re saying, because take it one step further. The profound transformation of Haredi society from hostility to the national project to real affection for it is expressed in the transformation of how they themselves view Torah study. What they used to need from the rest of Israeli society is—leave us alone. We don’t want anything to do with you.

Now, what they need is our validation that you’re a part of the struggle.

Donniel: And that you’re critical.

Yossi: We can’t fight this war without you.

Donniel: And without, they’ve said it.

Yossi: And you know something? It’s so moving. And I haven’t thought about it this way until you said this. And there’s something really beautiful about it. And what’s heartbreaking is we can’t give them what they need.

Donniel: Of course you can’t.

Yossi: We can’t do it.

Donniel: This is, you know, it started this way.

Yossi: This is such a fine insight to me.

Donniel: It’s like it started this way because how did the whole system fall apart? When they wanted to pass a basic law of Torah study in which secular Israel would declare that the study of Torah is an essential right of the state of Israel. And they wanted those who are serving in the army to basically say that you are as important to the country as my son and daughter or father, all of the above, who are serving and endangering their life.

Yossi: And you know what? You know what?

Donniel: And the country said, what are you, insane?

Yossi: It’s even more than that, because really what the Ha’aridim are saying by insisting on an official state acknowledgement of the value of Torah is—we love the state. And we want the state to represent the highest values of Judaism. We want the state to make our love for it valid. We want to validate our love.

Donniel: And that’s what they’re never going to get.

Yossi: This is a heartbreaking moment.

Donniel: They’re never going to get it.

Yossi: And it’s going unnoted.

Donniel: And they can’t achieve it because Israel right now is reeling under the price.

Donniel: You know, today was announced against three more soldiers. So it was an accident. But when you’re doing intensive operations like we’re doing now, there’s always going to be accidents. Whether we’re going to die because there were terrorist attacks against us, just people are going to die. And every day, and you see these beautiful faces. And the country says, what you want, I can give. And in many ways, Netanyahu knows that if he gives that, he loses the next election.

Yossi: So I actually want to thank you for this moment, Donniel, because I’ve been struggling to understand the Ha’aridim my whole life. I grew up in a Haredi neighborhood in Borough Park in Brooklyn. And living in Jerusalem, of course. And it’s only now that I understand that we got the whole thing wrong. We are looking at them as opportunists and freeloaders, and they see themselves as jilted lovers. As commanders. No, no… They’re giving us their love, and we’re spurning them.

Donniel: And we’re spurning them. And it’s almost like the Song of Songs, where the two beloved never meet each other.

Yossi: It is. It is a tragedy.

Donniel: There’s a tragedy now.

Yossi: Because they now love us.

Donniel: They actually love us. Or they want us. That’s the story they now want to tell about themselves. And I think it’s actually a story far more integral to the way more and more Haredim see Israeli society. They’re not as alienated.

Yossi: Not at all.

Donniel: And Israeli society can’t give that. Israeli society can’t give that. And what they need to do is if they stay in this coalition, and a new election occurs because of Gaza. Because if Smotrich and Ben Gvir cause the next election, and they stay inside, their ability to find a coalition partner who will validate their essential role for the future and safety of Israel will be over. They need to be able to say, “You want me in the coalition?” The next elections, you know, every poll shows that Netanyahu will never be able to form a coalition.

But Netanyahu is so astute and so skilled. Who knows if it’s not going to get closer. And then the next government may be headed by Bennett. We don’t know whom. But if they’re going to choose to build a coalition, and you need a Haredi party or you need Mansour Abbas, the ethos in Israel right now, unfortunately, will be a Haredi party is better. Because the Arab parties are, or at least, there’s a very broad consensus not to build the next coalition on the basis of that.

Yossi: This is a whole other discussion, but it’s something we really need to talk about, because the Israeli public never understood that Mansour Abbas was breaking with traditional Arab-Israeli politics and actually offering us a genuine partnership.

Donnel: He was doing, in many ways with the Haredi, he’s trying to say, “I’m here. I’m willing to be…”

Yossi: I don’t know if he’s saying he loves us, but he’s saying he’s willing to accept us on our own terms. You define, oh, it doesn’t get better than that.

Donniel: He says, “I accept Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people.” He said those words. What more do you want?

Yossi: Not only that, he said it first in Hebrew, then he repeated it to the Arabic media.

Donniel: And in the middle of the war in Gaza, he never broke that, because he knew that Israeli society could not accept a dual loyalty at this moment. They needed just to know that you were still loyal for Israel, so he’s remained silent. So, we have these…

Yossi: This is a separate tragedy.

Donniel: This is a separate tragedy.

Yossi: We should unpack it.

Donniel: Okay, so let’s leave that for another, because there’s a whole conversation about Israeli-Arab-Palestinians and their future in Israel.

So, the Haredim are banking that in the event that there’s going to be another coalition and they become necessary. If I go to the next election and I show that every criteria, the most important thing for me, I’m going to demand it, but I’m not going to demand that you keep your word. Their whole position is meaningless. If they have any hope, it’s to show that they stand for something and that they’re willing to bring a government down for the Holy of Holies that they care about.

Yossi: I don’t believe that a Bennett coalition can accommodate them anywhere near their red line. It’s true. First of all, Lieberman. Lieberman has made the Haredi separatism the essence of his campaign. And I think Yair Lapid would probably be more flexible. Gantz, there’s nothing to talk about. I’m not sure Bennett would bend on this issue.

Donniel: It’s an interesting issue. We don’t know, at least the Haredim, they also have a very astute sense of history. And they’ve seen that in the past, even Lieberman will sit with Haredim at the end of the day.

Yossi: And I have to tell you, Donniel, as moved as I suddenly am through this breakthrough in understanding the dynamics here, as moved as I am by our Haredi brothers and sisters, I still want to do everything possible to break this abnormal and destructive relationship.

Donniel: I’m with you. And the issue that they’re fighting about now is principally the sanctions. There’s real sanctions for those who, the 70,000 people who have draft notices who aren’t showing up, you can’t renew your license—

Yossi: 70,000 Haredi men have gotten draft notices?

Donniel: Haredi men have gotten draft notices. Now, if you don’t respond, there’s rules. If you have to renew your driver’s license, if you want to travel overseas, they stop you at the airport. Soon, part of the sanctions are that if they don’t hit a certain number, funding stops. Funding stops to the schools. So the sanctions are actually real.

Yossi: They won’t…. in all likelihood, they’re not going to start arresting people. You can’t arrest thousands of people.

Donniel: That is going to be on the fringe because that will never work. You can’t. And they’ll love, please, arrest all of us. If that’s the sanction here, put all 70,000 of us and we’ll study Torah in prison. And what are you going to do? Once, conscientiously, you can’t win that one. But when you touch people’s pocketbook, and in a more minor way, you can. And so it’ll be interesting to see.

But all of this, we’re watching it and we’re waiting because the Haredim have been talking about this for three years. Since the coalition started, we’re now three years into this coalition. They’ve been talking and talking.

Yossi: About getting this bill.

Donniel: Getting this bill. And if not, we’re going to leave. And if not, we’re going to leave. And if not, we’re going to leave. And now, Agudat Yisrael, Degel HaTorah, have left the coalition. Agudat Yisrael even announced that we’re going to vote for dismantling the government, which might just be words again. Shas, it seems is about to tomorrow leave the coalition.

Now, all of this is still, we’re not sure because all they have to do, it’s now July 15th. By July 30th, 31st, the summer session of the Knesset is over, to be reconvened only in October. So if there is no no-confidence vote by the end of July, the government lasts till October. That gives you three months to pressure, to negotiate, to come with a new deal and to say, okay, we’re all going to come. Here, we’re going to join.

But then, you know, we’ve been, you and I have been talking about new elections. When are there going to be new elections? This government has lasted. Please remember, if we announce new elections in November or December, the earliest possible time is six months later, you’re talking about May, June.

Yossi: Which is pretty much the full term.

Donniel: The full term is October.

Yossi: Unbelievable.

Donniel: So we’re actually coming to the end. Once we start the fall session of the Knesset, we’re at the last year of this government. It’s coming to an end. So all of this, this waiting into seeing how it plays itself out, is all unfolding right now. And we’re going to see whether the master Netanyahu, if he gets to the end of the month, what he’s able to put forth on the hostage deal, on the Haredi, on the elections, and how it’s going to unfold.

Any additional thoughts that you want to share with us today?

Yossi: Not a thought, just a state of mind. Sometimes I feel like my Israeli brain is exploding. There’s so much to process, so much pressure, and it’s relentless. And it’s not going to ease up in the coming months, that’s for sure. It will be different. It’s going to be very interesting, but the pressure is not easing up.

Donniel: As one of Netanyahu’s former closest allies said last night—aides—said last night on television, it’s when everybody else gets tired that Netanyahu is the master. He said to see Netanyahu in moments of pressure, and how he wheels and deals, it’s like he comes alive.

Yossi: I’ve heard this from someone who was part of his circle, saying that when everyone is flagging in the middle of the night, Netanyahu has this preternatural surge of energy, and he can go for 20 hours a day.

Donniel: So we don’t know. We’re also waiting to see this. Now, there were some open issues for us. Israeli-Arab Palestinians, a big issue. An issue that we didn’t get to is, if there are new elections, what are some of the new forces that might emerge? And how do we see? There’s so many things for us to talk about. And in the meantime, we’re waiting. We’re waiting.

Friends, check out Elana Stein Hain’s TEXTing. Any time you get to spend with Elana and with her guests is a net gain for you, and a net learning opportunity of real, real deep Torah. Yossi, thank you.

Yossi: Thank you.

Donniel: This is For Heaven’s Sake, Israel at War, day 648. Waiting, waiting, and waiting.