Sources For This Episode Include:
Amos Oz, םיאנקל םולש (Dear Zealots), trans. Jessica Cohen, 2017, pp. 135-36
Bereshit (Genesis) Rabbah 54:3

A transcript of this episode is available below.

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On TEXTing: IRL – Ideas for Real Life, Elana Stein Hain brings the big dilemmas facing North American Jews into conversation with classic and modern Torah texts.

TEXTing IRL Live: Choosing Israel Again and Again Transcript

Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.

Elana: Hi everyone. Welcome back to TEXTing IRL: Ideas for Real Life, where we wrestle with the big dilemmas of our time, through the lens of classical and modern tour texts. I’m your host, Elana Stein Hain, and we’re recording on Saturday night, December 13th, 2025, live at the Shalom Hartman Institute’s Winter Leadership Conference. 

Tonight is our first ever live recording, and we are so excited to do this at the WLC, the Winter Leadership Conference, where Jewish lay leaders from throughout North America have joined together for a weekend of learning and deep conversation with Hartman’s premier faculty.

Over Shabbat we focused on envisioning and renewing Jewish life and our connection to Israel. You know, liberal Zionists today are caught between Scylla and Charybdis. On the one hand, they find a very right-wing government and reality in Israel, which dashes their vision of what Israel can and should be. But on the other hand, they find anti-Zionism gaining traction outside and inside the Jewish community trying to argue that they should give up on Israel altogether.

How are liberal Zionists meant to continue to choose Israel, continue to be invested and to care, continue to raise their voices as the loyal opposition rather than exiting? And more importantly, why should they continue to choose Israel to discuss this issue? 

I’m joined by my Hartman colleague, Ronit Heyd. Ronit is our Vice President in Israel, Director of the Center for Israel and Jewish Identity at the Shalom Hartman Institute.  She’s a leadership and social change expert who joined the Institute after more than 20 years of developing and leading initiatives that address Israel’s most complex social challenges. 

This week Ronit traveled across North America with three Israeli change-makers from the Hartman Institute’s Hazon training program for university students as part of our pathways to hope, netivim shel tikvah. These Israeli leaders are envisioning and creating new realities in Israel today, inspiring us to engage in the possibility of the future. 

Ronit, welcome. 

Ronit: Thank you, Elana, it’s a pleasure to be here. 

Elana: It’s been great spending Shabbat with you and with all of you. And I’m happy to speak with you about this pressing issue. I wanna take a minute to just thank our sponsors, Micah Philanthropies and the Walder Charitable Trust. 

Ronit: Thank you. 

Elana: Now, what I wanted to do tonight is I wanted to talk modern Israeli texts in conversation with rabbinic texts, for obvious reasons. So I wanna start with a person who, I think people look at an Israeli society as the archetype of the connected critic, the person who is a clear member, a loyal member, and can also stand at a distance and look at what’s wrong with his society, and that is Amos Oz. 

In 2017, he wrote a book of essays called Dear Zealots, Shalom L’Kanaim, and he was basically trying to already, I don’t know if it’s prophylactically or in the middle of things, react to what he was seeing and the rise in anti-democratic. 

Perspectives in Israel. So let’s start with that because I think he gives us that liberal Zionist, “what am I supposed to do now?” kind of perspective. 

He writes: “Akshav yavo vidui katan,” here’s a little confession. “Ani ohev et Yisrael gam ka’asher ani lo yekhola lisbol otah.” I love Israel even when I can’t stand it. Even if I had to fall somewhere, he says, I don’t wanna fall anywhere else. 

“ani rotzeh lippol be-Yisrael.” I want to fall in Israel, not in London, not in Paris, not in Berlin, not in New York. Why? Because “kan yavo’u miyad anashim zarim ve-yarimu oti,” because total strangers will come and pick me up. And then he writes parenthetically, and when I stand up again, “adai yihyu lo me‘atim,” there will definitely be not a few people, “she-yismeḥu lir’ot oti nofel,” who would be very happy to see me fall again. 

So let’s take this opening line: I love it even when I can’t stand it. So what does that mean to you? 

Ronit: First of all, it’s very Israeli. It’s not like, yeah, there is, we like it, but there’s a part of it that is challenging. It’s: I cannot stand it. That’s the Israeli advantage of being able to say everything out loud, to scream about it. We don’t have to walk around nor to beat around the bush. 

But the second thing is that I think as we know in relationships, what’s most worrying is the silence. And he’s not silent. He says very clearly what he doesn’t like. And this unique ability of Amos Oz to be both very emotionally connected and also very angered and aggravated by what’s happening in Israel, and at the same time, be able to take this balcony view and observing what’s happening and give us his perspective on what’s happening in the society, and also, what is his role in the challenges that the society is facing. But I think what I mostly love about this text is that he defines dispute as part of love. 

Elana: So I have to say that as an American listening to you, I really understand Israelis being able, being able to do that. What do you think about Americans being able to say that? Meaning how can we, how can we help liberal Zionists in America be able to say out loud: I love it even when I hate it? I think it feels like a taboo, and yet as you’re saying, silence is actually quite dangerous. 

Ronit: It’s, I think, you know, people always ask, is it allowed to say criticism and criticism, and I’m not—of course, not only it’s allowed, it’s crucial. ‘Cause that’s what peoplehood is about. That’s about the loving that enables us to see our blind spots and that puts a mirror to where we have issues and problems. 

And I mean, you know, it’s like, it’s like my sister, I just had recently a conversation with my sister. 

Elana: Is she gonna be listening to this? 

Ronit: Well, I actually really hope she doesn’t because the, the bottom line of what I’m gonna say now was that she was right and I really hate it when I have to admit that she was right.

Elana: Oh, so she should listen. She should listen. Okay. 

Ronit: But we had a discussion a couple of weeks ago and she was telling me why a decision I was about to make and the direction I was going in was wrong and why it wasn’t a bad, it wasn’t a good idea and why I should reconsider. And it really frustrated me.

And I remember coming home and telling my husband that I had the most annoying conversation with my sister, only five minutes later to actually start making the change and taking the steps and the measures needed in order to change the direction that I was going in. And I ended up obviously doing what she suggested I would do. I texted her a few days later and I said, so that’s what actually happened. You really annoyed me, but, but you were right. And she said, I’m gonna make a bumper sticker out of it. 

Elana: Well, now she’s made a podcast outta it. 

Ronit: Yes. 

Elana: But I think we, we have to talk about the why though. Meaning that’s your sister, right? That’s your sister. Meaning one of the reasons why American Jews are actually afraid to say things like that is because I’m not sure we can say where the why is. Like where does our love for Israel come from? People just wanna stipulate the what? Right? “Love Israel!” But the how… How do you get to love Israel? How do you develop that love is actually rooted in a why would you?

So I’m wondering, even for you as an Israeli, do you have the why? Because—do you have your why? Because Almost Oz, he says, my why is because I’m gonna fall in the streets and people are gonna pick me up. 

And by the way, I’ve been living in Israel for over a year, and this is totally true. My kids, we walk down the street and don’t tell everybody in their class, but it turns out Israelis stare at you a lot, especially if you don’t look Israeli. So you walk down the street and you’re being stared at like you’re some sort of foreign being. But if a car is coming and my kid is crossing the street, “oh tizaher, yeled, yesh oto,” be careful, kiddo, let me help you. That sense of “if I fell, people would help me,” but it’s there. 

Ronit: So I wanna, I wanna start by saying, first of all, yes, it’s the people. It’s definitely the people and Amoz Oz also relates to that. It’s the people who are the reason, even if they really anger me and really frustrate me or I disagree with them. But also for me, it’s, as we say, it’s “muvan me’elav,” there is no question, there is no walking away. It’s like asking a tree what kind of, what, what would you do if you have to go and plant your roots in another, in another piece of land? I’m not, that’s where my roots… you know, drink all the minerals, both of this frustration and of the good things and the love and the complexities. So having the idea that it will be somewhere else is unacceptable to me. 

And also I would say a major chunk of my soul is dedicated to. And I think that’s true for a lot of us in the Jewish people and for a lot of Israelis, the fact that we are constantly looking at and observing, what are those things that we need to work on? What are the things that we need to rebuild? How do we do this repairing of what’s broken? And that’s part of our DNA. And if you have that in you, then it must be a reaction, a different kind of reaction to frustration than walking away. 

Elana: So you have people, you have roots, and you have an orientation towards repair. 

So I’m living in America. In order to access the people, I actually need to meet them. I need to actually be there. I need to have some sort of touchpoint in order to have a sense of the roots. I need to have some sort of grounding in Israel, but also Jewish peoplehood. There needs to be, there need to be serious roots, which don’t come because I was born there. They have to be taught in some way, and I also have to take my Tikkun Olam orientation of repair and be willing to turn it towards Israel, meaning Tikkun Olam is not just for outside. It’s actually for inside. So in some ways the perils. 

Now, I’ll tell you, you know me, I come from a religious perspective. The rootedness is in religion. So I think for people to actually find their why—but can we also talk about something serious? I mean, this is all serious, but there are Israelis who are leaving. So meaning what’s muvan me’elav, what’s clear to you is not necessarily clear to every Israeli, Israeli Jew, I would say.

Ronit: So I always operate based on the belief that no matter where I go, I will always be Israeli. Even if I live somewhere else for 20 years, I will still have the Israeli and definitely the Jewish identity within me. 

Now, the one thing that really, really angers me is when someone else defines me and tells me who I am and starts telling me about what are my values, what are my beliefs? How do I present, or how do I ground myself in my morals? That’s the one thing that—sorry my language—really pisses me off. And one of the things that is currently—

Elana: Well, just we’ll just ex it out with the thing about your sister. You know what? 

Ronit: Let’s not do this now. We can do that later. 

Elana: Fine, I’m just thinking ahead. Okay. But really, seriously, one of the things that is most troubling for me at the moment, that there is a certain sense in Israel that now, uh, a certain definition of Judaism is becoming more and more acceptable by Israeli society being that is being promoted and the, the loudest speakers of it are the current government and the ministers who are controlling our, you know, the public space and the public sphere in Israel. And that is not my kind of Judaism. 

And I am not willing to have those people define for me and force upon me a Jewish identity that has supremacy in it, or has the idea of domination in it. That is not who I am. And if I walk away from Israel, because whatever Israel is doing is wrong, it means that I’m letting them define a piece of my identity, and I’m not willing for that to happen. 

Elana: Ah, so that’s now you’re already adding a little more to the why, meaning you have your why of the people, and I love them and they’re part of me. You have your why of I have an orientation towards repair. You have your why of this is where my roots are. You actually have your why of, Hey, you don’t get to define what this is. I also get to define what this is.

Ronit: Not also. I mean, this is my identity.

Elana: Right.

Ronit: No one has the right to define my identity. And I think it’s, I mean, if I can say as an Israeli, I think it’s true also for North American Jews or for Jews outside of Israel, letting Israel’s action or to be more clear and precise, letting the government of Israel define your Zionism and define for you what that piece in your identity means is something that I don’t think we should accept, because—

Elana: by the way, I think a lot of Americans and Canadians are feeling that way. American Jews and Canadian Jews are feeling that way about America and Canada. Right? Meaning they’re having that.

Ronit: Totally, that’s, that’s part of the problem. But I think what we always say, and, and again I’m gonna quote Yehuda here, he says that Zionism is a project of imagination. When you have a project of imagination, everyone can take part in that. And leaving it up only to the Israeli government means that we’re just letting go of a very significant goal that we have here. 

Elana: Okay, but… Let’s, but let’s go back, let’s go to that last line. His parenthetical “There are people who’d be very happy to see me fall again.” This is a nation of frenemies. People know what frenemies are? Or you know, my kids—frenemies, right? It’s a nation of frenemies. So can I ask you question? 

Ronit: Also, my sister and I were until…

Elana: How do you—by the way, this is becoming a lot about the sister. I just wanted to—it’s becoming a lot about the sister. 

I, I actually, I, I do wanna talk about this because there’s one way to react in an environment that is polarized, that essentially continues to push for your vision. And I’m wondering if that’s the way you do it. Meaning, you don’t want someone to define you, but you also know that you continue the frenemy culture yourself, by, by putting your stake in the ground, and people probably know that you’d be very happy if they fell too. 

So I’m wondering how, how do you actually deal with that? ‘Cause you say you love the people—which people? 

Ronit: So I will first of all say that the best tool that we have from Judaism is machloket, is the idea of disagreement and argument. And the fact that we have this as a tool means that we’re in constant dialogue. We’re in constant dialogue, even with those who want to see me fall or—I actually, I don’t wanna see them fall, but I wanna see them less powerful, let’s say, and less defining for me what Israel should look like and would look like and will look like. 

So I believe very much in the idea that if we are in conversation and if we go through this challenge of all these things we disagree with, then we have the potential of moving forward. 

Elana: Okay, so I think that sounds great in theory, but I wanna move to the next piece of Oz, okay? Because he says, I am extremely fearful of the future. I am afraid of the government’s policies, and I’m also ashamed of them. And I’m afraid of fanaticism. I’m afraid of violence that comes with it. And then he says, “aval tov li l’hiyot Yisraeli.” It’s good. It’s good to be a, an Israeli anyway. Why? “Tov li lihyot ezraḥ ba-medinah,” it’s good for me to be a citizen in a country, “she-yesh bah shimonah va-ḥatsi milion roshei memshalot,”with eight and a half million prime ministers, “shmonah va-ḥatsi milion nevi’im,” eight and a half million prophets, “shmonah va-ḥatsi milion Moshiyim,” eight and a half million Messiahs. 

Now, do you like that? Meaning, in a certain sense when you’re protecting democracy, you’re trying to protect that, but do you feel that way or do you wish it was a little less polarized, a little less all over the place? 

Ronit: Look, I’m, I’m. Yes, sometimes I would like it to be more quiet, but, but no, I definitely believe that this is the way to handle it. And I mean, first of all, it’s really sad, ’cause when you read Almost Oz in 2017, it really was like a prophecy, because he talks about how this led a may lead Israel to become a pariah state, to become isolated, to be dealing with an incredible polarization that is breaking us apart as a society and tearing up our social fabric. 

I do believe that there is an ability to have a conversation across differences, up to a certain point when, and that point is where people disregard the idea that every human was created in the image of God, and that’s where those fanatics that Amos Oz is talking about—and I’m not sure he really defines, I mean, there’s this beautiful quot where said a fanatic is a walking exclamation mark. 

Elana: Beautiful. 

Ronit: And I believe a lot of the conversations need to be kind of trying to pull that exclamation mark to become a little bit more of a question mark. Once there are people who have no ability to become a question mark, then it means that they, they’re not in conversation.

But if I move away from my sister and talk about my father-in-law, for example—

Elana: Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. 

Ronit: Okay, so I happen to be married to a quite a right wing religious family. And I find myself sometimes in conversation with my father-in-law, over Shabbat dinner where he would say something outrageous that he heard in, in the shul, in synagogue, and he would say something about, you know, like, “Kol hasmolanim lo yehudim,” all those lefties are not Jewish, and then I would look—

Elana: Sitting with you at the table. 

Ronit: And then I would say to him, but, ah, your grandchildren here are, do you mean that they’re not Jewish? Now, he’s laughing and he’s smiling. And I know he doesn’t, it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t love me. I know that it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t care about me, but I know he’s been living in such an echo chamber that I have to make sure that I manage to lower, a little bit, the walls of that echo chamber in order to be able to be in conversation with him. Now that’s part of being with a million, eight million and a half prime Ministers, messiahs, and prophets—being able to be in conversation with them. 

Elana: Yeah, it’s interesting. He does actually go on to say, “Ma she-ra’iti kan,” what I’ve seen here, “beyamei ḥayai,” in my lifetime, “harbeh paḥot,” it’s much less, “ve-harbeh yoter,” and a lot more, “mimah she-hori ḥilmu alav,” that, that which my ancestors essentially could have ever dreamed of. Meaning, I think it’s less in the sense that the, the problems are real. And he, he, he doesn’t even know that his ancestors in dreaming about this could have ever really understood what the problems would be, and yet there’s so much more, right?

We were talking today, somebody mentioned the importance of gratitude in terms of building resilience. And there’s something here about him saying, part of the reason why I stay in this is because I’m grateful that it is. 

Ronit: Right. 

Elana: Right. And I, and I think it’s very easy to lose sight of that because of the ways that antisemitism has risen, for example, I’m thinking about it as an American Jew, in response to the war, because of all the problems, but just some basic gratitude for the fact that this is.

Ronit: Well, there’s another place where Amus writes that Zionism is a family name, not a given name, and like in any family, there are different members of the family who pull in very different directions and have very different views and visions of what Israel should look like. And so there’s this awkward situation where there’s that family member that you can’t stand or that really embarrasses you and you wanna bury yourself in the ground when they start speaking. But they’re family. 

Elana: I actually, I do have a family member, ’cause while we’re on it. You know, people mention, are you related to so and so? And I say, I’m so sorry, yes I am. 

Ronit: Oh wow. 

Elana: I’m so sorry. No, it’s half a joke. It’s just the things they did as a bully when they were a kid. It’s all fine. 

But I do think, I like this idea of saying that Zionism is a last name because one of the things we were talking about at Hartman a number of years ago is the question of how, let’s say, American Jews should look at themselves vis-a-vis Israel. Are we looking at ourselves as family members? Are we looking at ourselves as consumers? Are we investors? Are we fellow dreamers? 

And it’s interesting to suggest that even though I think for some people the family model, it just it, it started to feel a little bit trite by actually saying last name. 

Sometimes that actually does imply that, yeah, there’s some distance there, but for good and for bad, we’re in it together.

I wanna move us to a rabbinic text, ’cause I do think that as much as, and you know, this is always my way of thinking, as much as the questions are new, the iterations of the questions are new, basic human issues of relationship with those on whom you depend or who implicate you—those are questions that have been asked since time immemorial, and I wanna look at some of the wisdom of our sages. 

So something short, it’s from Bereshit Rabbah, Genesis Rabbah. It’s a Midrash, and it goes like this:

“Amar Rabbi Yossi b’Rabbi Chanina:” Rabbi Yossi, son of Rabbi Chanina said, “ha-tokhaḥat mevi’ah lidei ahavah,” rebuke brings people to love.You ever tried that? You ever seen that? 

Ronit: Uh, well…

Elana: Exactly. 

And then he quotes Mishlei, he quotes Proverbs, “Hokhe’aḥ le-ḥakham ve-ye’ehavekha,” you should give rebuke to someone who is wise and they will love you for it. “Hi de’atei b’Rabbi Yossi b’Rabbi Chanina,” this comports with rabbi’s perspective, “d’amar,” who said: “kol ahavah she-ein imah tokhaḥah, einah ahavah,” all love that does not have rebuke in it is not love. 

Now I wanna tell you, the first time I read this, I said. Oh, interesting. Okay. So the first line is saying somebody else should love you, if they’re wise, they should love you for taking the time to share and be honest with them about something you think they did wrong. And then the second line is basically saying, don’t worry when you’re showing love that can even be through rebuke, meaning it’s maybe the love of the rebuker.

But what I realized is that that’s actually—both lines are saying the same thing. They’re saying if you love someone because they’ve never told you that you’ve done something wrong, that’s not love. That’s not love. That’s like having a fan, having a fan. If you haven’t gotten any real feedback, and to be honest, I think as an American Jew, sometimes it can be uncomfortable. Right? When we try to give feedback and it’s like, okay, we will go to the Evangelicals now instead of you. I’m serious. Meaning I don’t mean, I don’t mean people who are anti Zionist, that’s not what I’m talking about. It’s, well, we gotta be able to rely on those who love us, and they love us, so we’re—I think there’s something wrong here.

Ronit: You know, it, this really one of the ideas of like ba’aish o bamayim, in water, in fire and in water, the idea that relationship is so strong that it can go through fire and water. 

I remember as a kid, my parents took me to see the opera, the Magic Flute. So I remember the scene where the Prince Tamino and Princess Pamina go through the red cloth of the fire and the blue cloth of the water, and they… it’s like, their attest to their courage and love. 

And then later I realized that maybe it’s the opposite. It’s the other way around because maybe. It’s actually going through fire and water together, it would, that’s what really builds your relationship. So it’s not a relationship that is m’litchatchila, that is at the first place strong enough in order to go through fire and water, but by going through all these challenges together, that’s how it becomes a strong relationship. And I really think that we need to, to go through this fire and water together. 

Elana: Yeah. It just, it, it, it makes me think how important the actual face-to-face relationships are, because you can’t build that in an abstract, faceless way. It doesn’t, it, there’s no love that’s expressed. You don’t feel the love, you don’t feel the warmth, meaning there. There has to be something from the American side as well where we are able to find a way to show that basic love, gratitude, appreciation, and to be able to put criticism in there as well. 

Ronit: Yeah. But also because the, you know, the, the movements, it can’t be heard over the podcast, but we’re moving our hands in ways that are showing—it’s not like we’re pointing fingers. 

Elana: No, people know. People know that we’re moving our hands. They know. 

Ronit: Okay. Absolute. They know. So it’s not like we’re pointing a finger and saying, you’re to blame and that’s your fault. It’s, we’re redirecting—or the idea is to direct the gaze of someone to where their blind spots are, or to what they’re doing wrong, or it’s not coming up and saying, oh, you’re immoral creatures. It is trying with a lot of love and empathy, and yes, listening to the fear, and listening to the difficulty, and listening to where people feel the despair and helping them work their way to start recognizing what needs to be done in order to repair. 

Elana: And I have to say that as an American Jew, I feel that we, American Jews also have to be willing to do the same. Meaning when we are hearing criticism from our brothers and sisters in Israel, telling us that there are certain things that matter to them, and we’re not upholding those things, we also have to recognize that that comes out of actual relationship and an assumption that there should be dependences there. And I think we talk a lot about how much we’re allowed to criticize Israel, but I think we should ask ourselves some questions. How much are these Israeli, Israeli Jews especially allowed to criticize us?

Ronit: Yeah, it’s a mutual relationship, you know?

Elana: It’s a mutual relationship. Right, which is why we’re gonna end this with just criticizing something, one about the other, to just play it out for people.

Ronit: Now, here, in front of everyone?

Elana: Look, I think that what you’re doing this week by going around with Pathways of Hope, with Israeli change agents is what you’re asking people to do is, you’re asking them to be part of the why of those change agents, you’re asking them to be part of the what, and you’re asking them to be part of the how. And I think the more we actually talk, the more we talk, to be honest, right? The more we talk about what it is that brings me here in the first place, as opposed to just assuming that it will stay that way because we know that it doesn’t. And the more we continue to build across the ocean to continue to build the why of being in relationship with each other, the stronger the future will be.

So I really wanna thank you Ronit, for learning with me on TEXTing IRL, IRL, and thank you all for joining this live recording. 

Ronit: Thank you.