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On TEXTing: IRL – Ideas for Real Life, Elana Stein Hain brings the big dilemmas facing North American Jews into conversation with classic and modern Torah texts.

Navigating Peoplehood and Humanity in a Hostile World — with Dyonna Ginsburg Transcript

Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.

Elana: Hi everyone. Welcome back to TEXTing IRL: Ideas for Real Life, where we deal with the dilemmas facing the Jewish people through the lens of classical and modern Torah texts. I’m your host, Elana Stein Hain, and we’re recording today on September 8th, 2025. You can find the texts from today’s show in the show notes, and we’d like to thank Micah Philanthropies and the Walder Charitable Fund for the generosity of sponsoring our podcast.

So we’re headed to Yamim Nora’im, the High Holidays. It’s a time that certainly focuses on Jewish particularism, but not only on Jewish particularism. Think about how our liturgy describes Rosh Hashanah: Hayom harat olam; today, the world was conceived. Hayom ya’amid bamishpat kol yetzurei olamim; today, God is going to have stand in judgment all of the creatures of the world. It’s not just about us. It’s about the world.

And even on Yom Kippur when we have the most intimate covenantal moment of the High Priest being able to go into the Holy of Holies, just that one time a year, there’s also a widening of the aperture on Yom Kippur when we read the book of Yonah, the book of Jonah, where God explains to Yonah, I care about all human beings and so should you.

And so as we make our way to the Yamim Nora’im, I wanna talk about Jews in the world, and that’s what we’re going to do on the next few episodes. And boy, what a fraught topic it is. I think I see two different themes emerging within Jewish communities, sometimes within the same person, but certainly within sub-communities. One theme is about how the world has abandoned us. I mean, look at some of the international representative bodies, the UN, the ICC. It’s unfair. They target us. They single us out. They work with our enemies. Look at the media, national, and international. Why are they so obsessed with Israel? Why do they trust, without verifying, sources that are literally terrorist organizations? Look at some of the antisemitism that we’re experiencing, whether on personal sporadic levels or in organizations, workplaces, universities, the world has abandoned us or worse.

And then I see another theme, people who are saying, but wait, we are pitting ourselves against the world. Global condemnation of Israel wasn’t a given. There were choices that the Israeli government made about how to fight this war that led to people’s response and reaction. And people who think in those terms are actually asking the question of, did Jews want to think about others, or are we only going to focus on ourselves right now? And those people, they will fight for the hostages. They will pray for Israeli soldiers, and they also want people thinking about Palestinian non-combatants.

Those are the two themes that I’m hearing, and either one on its own would be enough to spin your head, but together, how do we even get into this conversation? So I’ve invited someone who I think has a really interesting vantage point because they sit at the nexus of these things. In the humanitarian aid world, there are many Jews and Israelis who are involved in that sector in general. And so I’ve invited Dyonna Ginsburg to talk to us about it because she has the lens of seeing all of global Jewry and Israeli humanitarians and what they’re doing right now. Dyonna Ginsburg, welcome to the show.

Dyonna: Hi, Elana. It’s great to be here and I’m excited to learn some Torah with you.

Elana:: Dyonna, I just wanna give people a little background as to what you do. So Dyonna is the CEO of OLAM, which means “world” in Hebrew. It’s a global network of Jewish individuals and organizations that are committed to global service, international development, and humanitarian aid, which really does mean that Dyonna, you can offer Israeli, American, and global Jewish lenses to this conversation.

People should also know that before OLAM, you were the Director of Education and Service Learning at the Jewish Agency; the executive director of Bema’aglei Tzedek, an Israeli Social Change NGO; and Co-founder of Siach, a global network of Jewish social justice and environmental professionals.

Oh, and I have to tell everybody, we have been friends for two decades, and it’s really a blessing to be able to talk to you, not only right now, but every time I don’t understand something going on with humanitarian aid in Gaza, to be able to just text you and say, Dyonna, can you give me a little bit of insider information as to what’s going on here? So we really appreciate you being here.

Alright, let’s get to it. We’re gonna do some contemporary Torah today. We’re going to look at what’s called “The Fourfold Song” by Rav Kook. Now, Rav Kook is the first pre-state, I guess, Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel. So he’s basically the Yishuv Chief Rabbi, and he writes this beautiful song, the Fourfold Song, while he’s stuck in Europe during World War I, and what we’re gonna see is he’s talking about different ways that people engage with the world and how narrow or wide they draw their circles. And I think it will allow us to have a conversation about how narrowly or widely Jewish and Israeli humanitarians are drawing their circles right now, because certainly they’re right in it.

So let’s take a glance at the first two of his circles, cause he’s gonna have four and it starts like this. He says, “yesh she-hu shar shirat nafsho,” there’s somebody who sings the song of themselves, “u-venafsho hu motze et hakol,” and they find everything in themselves. He’s talking about individualism here. Right? They find the full spiritual satisfaction in themselves. That’s layer one.

Layer two: “Ve-yesh she-hu shar shirat ha-uma,” here is someone who sings the song of the nation. “Yotze hu mitoch hama’agal shel nafsho hapratit,” they leave their individual circle, “she-eino motze otah merochevet,” it’s not wide enough, and so what did they look at? They’re interested in “fierce heights and gentle love to the ensemble of Knesset Yisrael, the Jewish people, and they sing the Jewish people’s songs with her share in her distresses, delight in her hopes.”

So when I look at this, first of all, he says song, so I think about the soundtrack of someone’s life, right? Like what’s the soundtrack of your life? Is it more individualistic? Is it more collective? We talk about this all the time in Jewish life, certainly in North America. How do we ensure that Jews are not just looking at their own individual experiences, but are actually part of the collective? But I’m curious, when you look at this and you think about Jewish and Israeli humanitarians right now? Are they singing the song of themselves? Are they specifically affiliating themselves with the people of Israel, the state of Israel? What do you see there in terms of how they’re navigating the Song of Self and the Song of Nation in such a tense atmosphere?

Dyonna: I think it’s difficult to paint the entire group of Jewish humanitarians with one broad brush. I will speak in general terms, but obviously there are exceptions. So first, let’s take a step back and just define who these people are. So we’re talking about professionals who are working in humanitarian aid, which is commonly known as disaster relief, in crisis situations, either natural earthquakes, hurricanes or manmade conflicts, wars. And I would also add to that international development professionals, where people are working on ongoing needs in developing countries, whether that’s agriculture or global health, et cetera.

So as to your question of how they see themselves and how others see them, I’d really divide it into three categories based on their workplaces. The first is Jewish who work in secular aid organizations, UN agencies, some of the entities you mentioned before, NGOs, et cetera. And here we have hard data. We discovered that 67% identify proudly as Jews and it’s core to their identity, and an additional 30% say while it’s not central, it’s an important part of who they are. So the overwhelming majority, 97%, say that they are proud Jews, which—I think this challenges a common misconception that these are universalists who are detached from any particularistic identity.

And yet, just because they’re proud Jews doesn’t necessarily mean that they see themselves as doing this work on behalf of the Jewish people. In fact, I think for most, they are motivated by a personal set of values, that includes Jewish values, but don’t see themselves as representing the Jewish collective.

I will say that particularly since October 7th, we’ve heard many of these individuals express discomfort with the fact that their non-Jewish colleagues, often colleagues who are critical of Israeli policy or how we’re waging the war, currently look at them as representing the entire Jewish people or Israeli government decisions.

Elana: Right. So you’re saying they’re really trying to do this and it may be spurred by their Jewish values that they’re involved in humanitarianism, but they don’t wanna be the representative of the Song of Nation, but people are forcing them into that box.

Dyonna: Correct. So I would say these people are firmly situated in the Song of Nation, but they don’t see themselves as acting on behalf of the Song of Nation.

Elana: Got it. Yes. That’s an important distinction.

Dyonna: So that would be the first category.

The second category are Jews who work in Jewish humanitarian organizations, American Jewish World Service, HIAS, the JDC’s humanitarian wing. And for many of these individuals, they were attracted to work in a Jewish organization, but I believe mostly for practical reasons, the ability to celebrate Jewish holidays, be an environment free of antisemitism. And here there’s a—

Elana: Wait a second, wait a second. “The ability to be in an environment free of anti-Semitism”? You just put that in the same sentence as “the ability to celebrate Jewish holidays.” Is that a new phenomenon? Can you say one more sentence about that?

Dyonna: In this very same piece of research we try and unpack this, and what we’ve seen is there’s always been anti-Semitism in this sector, but it’s gotten worse since October 7th, and we can discuss that a little bit later, but I would say the second category of Jewish humanitarians are attracted to work in a Jewish context because it enables them to do their humanitarian work under better conditions. I’m not necessarily sure that the majority are interested in representing the Jewish people, but unlike the first category for them, it is harder to hide their identities, even if they wanted, because they’re working for organizations that are publicly identified as Jewish.

Elana: Sure, sure, sure. That’s a choice they make.

Dyonna: And then for the last category, Israelis working in Israeli humanitarian organizations, those individuals and organizations don’t necessarily see their work as Jewish. Jewishness and Israeli society is defined in other ways, public ritual, whether there’s transportation on the Sabbath, the observance of the Jewish life cycle and calendar, not necessarily through a moral imperative or humanitarian commitment. In that case, I would say most of the Israeli individuals see their work either through an Israeli lens or a purely universalist lens.

And this brings me back to the Fourfold Song because I think it’s important to note that Rav Kook wrote this song, and in particular, the Song of Nation, prior to there being a nation-state, there was already the start of the contemporary Zionist movement, but we had not yet achieved sovereignty. So when he’s talking about the Song of Nation, he’s talking about a sense of global Jewish peoplehood.

Elana: Right.

Dyonna: But I wonder, if we were to write this today, would there be another layer or another circle, or perhaps even another song that’s about Israeli-ness, a civic consciousness, a sense of being connected to all Israeli citizens, whether they’re Jewish or not. And I think for a lot of the Israeli humanitarians, that is the Song of Nation that animates them. It’s that part of being a key part of the Israeli collective, not necessarily the Jewish peoplehood part.

Elana: Yeah, but that’s so interesting. Well, first of all, I think when he’s talking about the Song of Nation, I think he’s talking about nascent Zionism, right? So he is talking about a desire for a state, but he may not be able to see that there will be some pulling away of Israeliness and Jewishness. He may just not be able to imagine that. But you’re also making me realize that for American Jews or Canadian Jews, they also have the song of being Canadian, the song of being American, that is very parallel to what you’re saying as a song of Israeli-ness, right? Cause we’re about to move on to universalism, but what you’re pointing out is that actually there are a lot of layers in between the nation as the people of Israel and humanity, right? And your state, your country actually becomes part of that.

So let’s take a look at his next two, cause it’ll keep us, you know, expanding the circle.

Says, “ve-yesh asher od titrachev nafsho,” there is one who might broaden themselves further, “ad she-yotze u-mitpashet me’al gvul yisrael,” I love the way that he’s putting this—until they sort of like spill over the boundaries of Israel. It’s almost like this person has such a sense of abundance and generosity and connectivity that it’s gonna spill over, “lashir et shirat ha-adam,” to sing the Song of Humanity. So you’re looking for “the majesty of humanity, he continues, the splendor, dignity of its divine image, being drawn to the common destiny, yearning for humanity, sublime self-actualization, and it’s from this life source that that person draws the principles of their ruminations, their investigations, their ambitions, and their dreams.” So they have ambitions for humanity.

And then he goes one further out. “Ve-yesh asher od mizeh le-ma’alah berochav yitnaseh,” a person might go even further and elevate themselves further until they are connecting with all, “kol ha-yekum kulo,” all of existence. So we’re talking about people who are connecting to nature. So he’s now bringing us to more universalistic identifications, right? Identifying with humanity, identifying with nature itself.

Here’s the deep pain point, right? You talked about a pain point of—people wanna just be themselves and people are forcing them into a box, but have these universalistic songs become oppositional to the Song of Jewish Nation, whether, by the way, because of the silence of humanitarian orgs after October 7th, or the criticism of Israel during this war, or that perception of abandonment that we talked about at the beginning, how is that actually impacting people who are not on the sidelines like most of us, but the people who are in the humanitarian work fray?

Dyonna: Here, too, I would refrain from painting everybody with a broad brush.

Elana: I figured.

Dyonna: But I would say that we have heard countless examples on this—research also backs it up—of strange relationships with colleagues, of increased isolation in the workplace, of incidents of antisemitism, incidents of questioning Israel’s legitimacy to exist, or assuming political opinions based upon the fact that someone is Jewish. And this is something that we’ve heard across the board.

And I think for many of these Jewish humanitarians, October 7th brought into sharp relief attention that they may not have thought about before. That for them, their Song of Self, song of Nation, and Song of Humanity all seemed aligned and now it pulls in different directions.

And as you mentioned, I think for many, the silence of the humanitarian community, particularly after October 7th, related to sexual violence that happened on that day, was very jarring, disappointing, and upsetting to people. I will say that at the same point in time, some of those longstanding relationships and partnerships with the community served in developing countries or in crisis situations have continued despite this really challenging period, and there are actually beautiful examples of solidarity. People actually continue to feel that the work is worthwhile, but feel competing commitments in terms of the sector writ large.

And I think for many of these people, they care deeply about the Jewish people in Israel and want to see us living up to our best selves in the world and they care deeply about humanitarian work, and want to see the humanitarian sector living up to its deepest principles and values. And what the last two years has basically shown is that both of those are failing in different ways. And so I think for people who find themselves at the intersection, that is difficult.

I’ll add one other layer, as we well know, due to federal funding cuts in the US and around the world, this is a sector that’s come under assault. And so what you have is Jews who for the very first time feel like their value system is out of sync with the broader sector. So that’s internal questioning, but then also facing an external assault on their life’s work, and what does it look like to navigate that space while still feeling deeply that at its core, the Jewish community and Israel have moral commitments, and at its core, the humanitarian sector has deep moral values?

Elana: Oh, so what you’re articulating is, what is it like to feel defensive of your group, but also want your group to be its best at the same time?

Dyonna: Yes.

Elana: I’m sure many people listening can relate to that sense, right? What’s interesting… I think there’s two things that I’m intrigued by in terms of what you’re saying.

One is, when you go to this Fourfold Song, the way that Rav Kook is setting this up is it’s about you and your connection to the world. And what you’re describing in terms of the humanitarian world just being silent after October 7th, is you’re actually describing people realizing, well, wait a second, I thought I was a part of their universal song, meaning, not just I was singing their song, I was supposed to be part of their “Other” that’s included. Or maybe I wasn’t supposed to be an “Other” at all. We’re all in this together. We’re all men. They’re not actually singing my song. Right.

And I think that’s interesting. And that’s not singing my Song of Nation, that’s singing my Song of Humanity, meaning this is part of me being a human being. I’m supposed to be here not just as a Jew, but as a human being, right? Not just as an Israeli, but as a human being.

And then the second thing I’m intrigued by is your point about humanitarians, looking at their own sector and saying, how come it’s not living up to its own values? That itself is highly problematic, as you say, even as they wanna defend the sector at the same time.

So can we get to what I think might be the piece that people know least about, which is, Israelis and Jews who are involved in humanitarian aid in Gaza? So can you talk a little bit about how those people, what’s the role that they’re playing in those situations?

Dyonna: Since October 7th we’ve seen some very interesting shifts. So up until that point in time, most of these humanitarians that I was talking about were working primarily in Africa, Asia, and Latin America. And immediately after October 7th, they leveraged their global expertise to meet the needs of Israelis who were most impacted by the Hamas attack. And then several months later, it was clear that they also had a unique role to play in terms of meeting the needs of Gazan civilians.

At first, the role that some of our partners in our network were playing was really as a translator, a liaison, a go-between, because it was very clear that there was not a lot of trust, relationships, common language between the broader humanitarian sector and Israeli authorities, the IDF, the government. And so someone needed to be able to have those conversations, both on a moral level but also on a security level from Israelis’ perspective.

Elana: Wait, why didn’t those relationships exist? Why had the humanitarian world not had those relationships previously with any governmental entities in Israel?

Dyonna: There is the rub, and that points to the larger systemic question.

Elana: Uh-huh.

Dyonna: I’ve heard from many Jews since October 7th that their organizations possess relationships in countries around the world, that’s what humanitarian aid organizations are set to do in order to activate those connections when a crisis occurs. Those relationships did not exist with Israeli authorities. And so it was really about building those relationships from scratch. And here, Israeli humanitarians, because they’re in two worlds—

Elana: They have their songs, their different songs.

Dyonna Ginsburg: They have their different songs. They were able to translate those melodies—

Elana: Wow.

Dyonna: —to communities that did not have those relationships before. And in more recent months, that has transitioned not just to being the go-between, but to actually being involved in direct aid provision. Now, obviously Israelis are not on the ground in Gaza, but they’re working with trusted and vetted partners in order to provide food with all of the challenges that we know exist around food and aid diversion, maternal health, a whole slew of factors, but really have transitioned from being that go-between to actually being involved in getting aid to those vulnerable communities who most need it.

Elana: What allows that change to happen from the more translator to the more direct provisions? What causes that change, that evolution?

Dyonna: I think it’s a combination of factors. It was a maturation and a realization that they were able to do more than they were doing as go betweens. It was also some of the restrictions around aid that are constantly shifting that enabled Israeli entities to play a more significant role, and it was really an opportunity for them to step up and provide support in ways that they were able to uniquely do that.

Elana: Wow. So I’m seeing two screens, like a split screen in front of me, because I’m seeing one screen where Jews just want to be humanitarian aid professionals, and they’re getting pigeonholed as Jews and made to feel uncomfortable in certain situations or worse or… And then I’m seeing Israelis who are stepping up, it sounds like as, hey, we’re Israeli and we’re Jewish—not all—we can actually step in here and do something because of that identity that hasn’t happened before. Right? So I’m just noticing that split screen.

Let me ask you a question. I mean, R Kook ends with, of course, he wants you singing all of these songs, right? He has this beautiful—and people can look in the show notes—he has this beautiful, you know, a person can sing all of these songs together, dah, dah, dah. We are discussing that that’s not so easy. And I’m curious from your perspective, it sounds like you have, on the one hand, these relationships being built. On the other hand, these systemic gaps and worse that exist, and when you think about how the future looks in this sector, what are your thoughts about what people should be doing right now?

Dyonna: You started off by talking about Yamim Nora’im, the High Holidays that are coming up, and cheshbon hanefesh is a very central theme, which is doing a reckoning. And I think there’s a reckoning that needs to happen in the broader aid community. And so here’s an opportunity for the broader aid sector to ask serious questions of itself.

But I think this is also an opportunity for renewal. And one of the, perhaps silver linings on this is—for all of the very deep tensions between these songs, there are Jews who are now trying to bring some of these songs together and create relationships that didn’t exist before. And I think in the overall scheme of things that will be better for the region, and that will be better for alleviating human suffering in the broader world. And so I see an opportunity that exists in all of this very otherwise horrible situation.

Elana: Wow. I think it’s remarkable where you sit, the ability for you to tell us about what you’re seeing among global Jewry in their different organizations, in secular organizations, in Jewish organizations, among Israelis, in Israeli organizations. And I think it’s a tough place to sit. And some of what we try to do on this show is actually expose people to those who are actually dealing with the dilemmas in a very real way and not a pat way. And I think you’re really doing that.

So I wanna thank you for all the things that you do in this sector and beyond, but for all the things that you do. Thanks for joining me, Dyonna. I really appreciate it.

Dyonna: Thank you.