Israeli Election: The Aftermath

The following is a transcript of Episode 60 of the For Heaven’s Sake Podcast. Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors. 

Donniel: Good evening. My name is Donniel Hartman and I’m the president of the Shalom Hartman Institute, and this is a special edition of For Heaven’s Sake, live from Jerusalem on election night 2022. Joining me tonight is my dear friend and colleague, Yossi Klein Halevi who, besides being my friend, also is a senior research fellow at the Institute. Friend though, comes first.

Joining us together, also, we have a live audience made up of Jewish and American students from Hevruta program, as well as some board members from Melton and some board members of the Hartman Institute and some friends. So welcome to all of you and, uh, may this night turn out to be a blessing. What that is depends on who you ask.

One would’ve thought that after four elections in three years, round five would hold very few surprises. After all, none of the parties or personalities have changed, with the exception maybe of Ben Gvir. That’s a big exception. It’s still Bibi and Yair and Benny. And the polls have consistently shown that we remain stalemate against each other, that few Israelis intend to vote for a different block than they have over the last three years.

And yet something has changed this time. There’s a desperation. I feel it. I don’t know if you feel it, Yossi, and I want to talk about that at the beginning. An edge that is shared by both camps, a sense that this time the fate of the country is hanging in the balance.

It’s one of the reasons why, at least currently, it’s one of the highest turnouts in the election that we’ve had in decades. As presented in the campaigns leading up to the election for Netanyahu’s camp, this is an election about Israel’s future as a Jewish state. For the anti-Netanyahu camp, it’s an election about Israel’s future as a democratic state or what we mean by a Jewish state.

As we await the closing of the polling stations and the initial results, which we’ll report here in exactly 21 minutes, but who’s counting, um, What are the questions which we should be asking, Yos? What should we be focusing on if Netanyahu’s Camp prevails? And what should we be focusing on if the other side, they’re not gonna prevail or if they could prevent Netanyahu from forming a coalition? And finally, what happens if it’s another stalemate? 

As always, the questions that most interest us in For Heaven’s Sake are the values of Israeli society and the quality of our discourse. With that in mind, let’s begin. Yossi, I’m gonna ask you a question that I’m dying to start with, but I’m gonna let you start cause I have just so much.

Yossi: Go ahead. 

Donniel: No, no, no. It’s gonna be you. Yossi, let’s start with how are you feeling? We’ve been through this for quite a while. Both of us have been communicators of Israel for world Jewry for decades. This is not a normal night. How are you feeling? 

Yossi: The first emotion, I think is the kind of acute anxiety that I can only compare to waiting for news from someone you love who’s on the operating table, and I’ve felt that all day. And there’s a sense of a cloud hanging over me, and it’s very personal, and I don’t think I’m, I’m alone in that, regardless of which camp you’re in, I think that most Israelis today feel this sense of deep personal anxiety, which is a measure of how much we all love this country and how protective we feel toward Israel. 

There’s this sense of deep, deep angst. There’s also sadness. Sadness for me in this context is, I know what so many of my fellow Israelis who are not voting the way that I did think of people like me today. They think we don’t love this country. They think we’re traitors, and I worry about the long-term impact of what’s been unleashed in this election.

And at the same time, I feel, I mean this is something you and I have talked about. I’m ready for the morning after. I’m not going to go into mourning, even if from my point of view, the worst-case scenario happens, and the Bibi Ben Gvir coalition prevails. I’m going to be fully prepared to fight for my Israel. And you? And how about you?

Donniel: After. Oh, so nice of you to ask. I was waiting. Um, it’s been a really hard day for me. Do you ever feel like you’re two people? 

Yossi: At least. 

Donniel: At least. Yeah. I, I was born into this position at the Hartman Institute. It’s not a job for me. It’s literally my life’s work. It, it encompasses everything about me, and personally, I am petrified the whole day and the whole day I’m working on not allowing myself to let that take over. Because at the end of the day, I’m holding myself not to go to places that aren’t constructive because my whole life, it’s about pessimism is a luxury I can’t afford. That’s my whole, that’s the slogan of my life. 

Yossi: Look, you’re one of the most positive people that I know. And, and, within,

Donniel: I act that way.

Yossi: Well, and within the Jewish community you have that position. And so this is a big test for you, Donniel. 

Donniel: It’s a big test cause so much of my, I feel the Jewish people, on our watch, cannot be allowed to walk away from each other. For me, that’s, that’s not an existential threat to the state of Israel. That’s the end of Jewishness. Because I start, as I say, over and again, I first buy into this people and I feel the weight of that responsibility. And I feel that under the best case scenario, we’re gonna be profoundly tested here in Israel, and under the worst case scenario, we’re gonna be tested worldwide and just gearing myself to that.

You know, it’s been a complicated day. I don’t know if like, I’m not allowed to feel what I should be feeling. But yeah, let’s, 

Yossi: I do think we have to give ourselves a little bit of space to, uh, go through a certain sense of shattering because something has been broken. No matter what happens, even if we manage, we, our, the camp that you and I support to prevent a Netanya Ben Gvir government and Ben Gvir is not a minister in the next government. He’s going to be the head of one of the largest parties in. 

Donniel: So let’s talk

Yossi: And this was inconceivable a year ago. 

Donniel: That’s true. Let’s, let’s hold now. Let’s shift gears for a moment. And we’ve protected ourselves a little bit for what’s gonna happen in, uh, 13 and a half minutes, but who’s counting? Um, but here it is. We have 50 minutes or so before the results. 

This is the fifth election in three years. It’s been going on for ostensibly five months, even though much of it was over the summer. And then, thank God, I think we should run every election campaign over the holidays because it just limits the amount of, of stuff, like it just shortens it.

But is there anything in this campaign, and it’s difficult, that has surprised you, that’s strange, or that you wouldn’t have expected? 

Yossi: I would phrase it a little bit differently. There’s something essential that I didn’t understand all year and has just begun to, to come into focus. And that is how deeply traumatized the Israeli right has been by this government that I’ve been celebrating all year as one of the great achievements in Israeli political history.

The fact that we brought together the hard right and the hard left and the center and even more. The first joint Jewish-Arab coalition in Israel’s history, and what I missed or didn’t pay enough attention to was how traumatized so many Israeli Jews were by the riots last year. Riots not involving Palestinians, involving Arab Israeli citizens. And the fear, the fear,

Donniel: But those riots were under the Netanyahu government. They weren’t, they weren’t the byproduct of this government. But it doesn’t matter. 

Yossi: It, it doesn’t matter because this government brought in an Islamist party. Now, what I thought people would understand is that this government, the great achievement of bringing in an Arab party, and even more so an Islamist party, was to force the party to moderate, and the head of the party, Monsour Abbas came out with a historic statement that you and I have talked about in previous podcasts, accepting Israel as a Jewish state, the first mainstream Arab Israeli politician, I think in the country’s history, to affirm Israel as a Jewish state. 

And I thought that somehow that would soften the understandable anxiety of bringing an Islamist party into government. But what I realize now is that in some sense, this election has been a competition, really a contest between which narrative about Arab Israelis is going to prevail. Is it going to be the Monsour Abbas, joint Arab Jewish Coalition historic breakthrough narrative? Or is it going to be Arab Israelis as a fifth column?

Donniel: So it’s interesting because we also spoke about this, but maybe this is cause we speak to ourselves so often that the riots and the breakdown within mixed cities in Israel led many of us to say, Wow, we need to heal. Healing is self-evident. And then this government was all about healing. But for many Israelis it wasn’t about healing.

No, it was, you’re still fighting. You know, you can’t, don’t heal me. My pain, my anger, my fear, 

Yossi: It’s more than that. It’s more than that. Donniel, the threat that was on the streets has now been absorbed into the government. I can’t even trust my government anymore, and that’s, that’s what I didn’t fully understand.

Donniel: That we didn’t fully understand. Right. Somebody said to me, following the same thought, that the rise of Ben Gvir is not the rise of fascism in Israel. But it is the direct result of the discomfort with Monsour Abbas that we weren’t yet in a place to heal. But I think one of the interesting things in Israeli society is how slow we seem to be to be healing, and we should, this is something we’re gonna have to talk afterwards, how long do we remain angry?

And I wonder whether the fact that we are so powerful gives us the luxury of remaining angry for a very, very long time, that we could maintain whatever status quo we want, and that we don’t have to do the cheshbon nefesh, the internal search and say, you know, on Yom Kippur, which we just, you don’t say, chatata, avita, you don’t pound your neighbor’s chest and say, chatata, avita, pashata. You have sinned. You have done wrong. 

You’re supposed to pound your own. But power, the combination of power and fear is turning out to be far more toxic than, um, we could have imagined. You know, one of the, 

Yossi: What, what surprised you? 

Donniel: You know, in the intro we were speaking about the momentous issues on the table. So first, truth be told, I’m not on social media, so a whole slew of discourse and garbage I wasn’t exposed to. But one of the things that surprised me was how much the election was not about policy, even though policy was on the table. You didn’t hear any profound policy debates. You didn’t hear someone saying, you’re for doing A, B, C, and D, and I’m for doing X, Y, and Z.

They spoke about ends. They spoke about a larger, I’m gonna keep Israel safe. No, I’m gonna keep Israel safe. But it was really, it was a culmination of years in which the primary issue, I think, on the table is, who do you trust to be the leader of this country? And we weren’t debating settlements, we weren’t debating whether we should have a peace process with Palestinians.

Oh, you know, we were throwing garbage, you know, like the gas accords with Lebanon, that we know that Netanyahu was ready to sign himself. So people said whatever they want, but we knew it wasn’t substantive. It’s come down to who do you wanna lead this country? And it’s interesting that precisely because of the enormity of what’s on the table, that maybe they realize it’s really not about policy, really is, who do you think’s gonna look out for what you think is really, really important. 

Yossi: I think there was another element here as well, which is that what was being debated is which of Israel’s two main identities is under threat. Is it Israel as a Jewish state, or Israel as a democratic state? And the right deeply believes that the anti-Netanyahu coalition is a threat to the Jewishness of Israel, intends to dismantle key elements of the Jewish state, which to my mind is ludicrous, but that fear is deeply there,

Donniel: So but that, there’s,

Yossi: the same way that they think that my fear of what they intend to do to Democratic Israel is ludicrous. 

Donniel: Like I have family members who are voting for Ben Gvir and this person’s not a fascist, says, don’t worry, I know you’re, don’t worry. Once he’s gonna come in the government, it’s not what he’s gonna do and it’s gonna be moderate. You’re gonna see. What I’m gonna get is just a little hyper, more protective Netanyahu without any of the residue that you’re frightened from. 

Yossi: So they’re saying the same thing that I, 

Donniel: Same thing.

Yossi: That’s exactly right. That I’m saying about my camp’s relationship to a Jewish state. What are you worried about? We’re not going, we’re not going to dismantle the Jewishness of the state. 

Donniel: This is gonna be something that we’re gonna have to talk after the results come in in five minutes. But another thing that I think we have to notice is how ineffective each side’s discourse was in communication to the other. Maybe we weren’t even trying. But I know I’ve been trying, I’ve been trying for quite a while to set up a red lines. Red lines that have nothing to do with the borders of Israel. Red lines that have nothing to do with whether you think Abu Mazen wants peace or doesn’t want peace, but that racism and fascism are red lines, that undermining the Supreme Court is a red line.

And what I’ve experienced this whole campaign is that as I speak, anybody who wasn’t predisposed to me beforehand just doesn’t see the world that way. You speak about Ben Gvir as a red line, the immediate answer is, well, how come Mansour Abbas is not a red line? 

It’s, but are they the same? Is it, is it that each one of us has to find the one, is it the same? Was there a reason? But there was no conversation. He’s anti, How could he be anti-democratic? All the arguments that were used in which we tried to communicate certain values were completely ineffective. 

Yossi: Each camp was talking to itself. Absolutely. And there was another element here. You mentioned social media before. I, I pay a lot of attention to social media in an election campaign and then I try to put it away, but I felt this time especially that I was living in a sewer. The hatred, the rage, the lies. 

I mean, just yesterday, Netanyahu tweeted a fake clip of a Gantz speech where he’s purportedly saying how proud he is that when he was the IDF chief of staff, he endangered the lives of soldiers for the sake of Palestinian civilians.

What they did was they spliced together two films, and even after Netanyahu, who was exposed with that lie he continued to release it. 

Donniel: Doesn’t matter.

Yossi: Doesn’t matter. And this is the discourse today. 

Donniel: And you know, just to be honest, Ben Gvir is claiming I’ve heard, cause I’ve been listening on regular media, people are quoting something that somebody said X number of years ago. And when someone says, I don’t believe that, or don’t agree with that anymore, that was a mistake. That’s never accepted. It’s interesting. 

So I said that when I was 17 years old. Now I’m 43. To what extent do we believe or not believe? Now, I’m not getting into whether is it correct or not correct, but 

Yossi: The only question in terms of Ben Gvir is what did he, what did he say when he was 41?

Donniel: No, no, I’m with you. But I wanted to, It’s, I, I don’t wanna leave our audience with the impression, 

Yossi: but that’s, that’s part of the why 

Donniel: that social media is not, is like there’s something, and I’m wondering, and we’re gonna see literally in one minute where we’re going, but I’m wondering how a society, and I know our friends in the United States are sharing this very deeply, whether we could heal from a broken social media system that is literally damaging our societies on an ongoing basis. We are literally committing social suicide. 

Yossi: Yep. Yeah. We’re just destroying, we’re destroying our immune system. 

Donniel: And, you know, and, uh, the thing about the Jewish people is that we’re never strong enough to withstand these type of internal forces.

Let’s breathe for a minute. and uh, we have how long? 

Yossi: If anyone hasn’t voted yet, rush out now. 

Donniel: Yeah. I vote early in the morning under the assumption that it counts more somehow. Yep. We could put on the screen. 

Yossi: There it is.

Donniel: Here we are. Okay. Stay tuned people. 

TV Reporter #1: Could be a good sign for the parties of the Zionist left, but we have to wait and see.

TV Reporter #2: Okay. But I am seeing a, uh, results from exit poll. Uh, we see that the Netanyahu bloc, 62 seats, this is according to Channel 11 con broadcasting. The Lapid Block, uh, four and Chadash Tal, that is, uh, one of the Arab parties has four seats. Uh, and if those results go, hold, if those, if, if they are accurate, victory tonight, a comeback political comeback for Benjamin Netanyahu.

TV Reporter #1:  Can I just say if Chadash Tal’s tile’s got four, that means according to any logic, they’re still borderline. In other words, they are not guaranteed representation in the next Knesset. They’re too close to the cutoff module. 

TV Reporter #3: That’s absolutely right. 

TV Reporter #2: I stress again, these are exit polls. Uh, they are not actual results. And of course, uh, they could turn out differently. Uh, but, and they could go up. 

TV Reporter #3: All these could go up or down by at least one seat. I think that it’s worth pointing out though, that the danger that Chadash would fall beneath the threshold is real. However, we are hearing from the field about a rise in Arab turnout towards the end. So if that is true, if that holds, then they could either stay. 

Donniel: Okay, Yos. 

Yossi: How are you feeling, Donniel? 

Donniel: Um. It’s what, it’s what I expected, unfortunately. That’s why I was so upset today. Yeah. So, uh, you know, when you get the news you expect, you’re actually, you protected yourself a little bit. But let’s talk seriously about how, how do we protect the Jewish people and how do we protect Israel? Israelis spoke. 

Assuming, okay, we’ll say this over and again, assuming that these numbers will remain, Israelis clearly spoke. The system accurately reflects the multiplicity of parties, gives almost every Israeli a party that they could feel comfortable voting for. According to these polls, the religious Zionism is getting 14 to 15 seats.

Shas is getting 10. 62 is a stable coalition. 

Yossi: Shas is 10. 

Donniel: Shas is 10. There’s two critical questions I believe that we have to put on the table right now. There is no doubt that this government represents not everything, but many things that are abhorent to my Israel, to my Judaism, to my Zionism, and um, it will also pose a major, major problem for many liberal Jews. The majority of Jews in North America are liberal Jews. 

If Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people and not just Israelis, this vote doesn’t represent the homeland of the Jewish people, nor can it. So where do we go? Two things. This is not Donniel speaking. This is Donniel as head of the Hartman Institute speaking. That’s also part of Donniel. 

First thing that we have to do is we have to recognize our failure. And every one of, of this other camp, the 54, it’s not a small camp who visioned another Israel, have to ask ourselves, what did we do wrong? And how do we have to change our program of action? How do we change our message? How do we change the content of what we do? 

There are groups that we’re not gonna convince, but Ben Gvir, Smotritch, their natural number is not 14-15. Prior elections, their number was six. One of the strategic goals has to be, how do we get it back to six? How do we be far more effective in communicating the Israel that we want. 

Because we’re, we’re in the minority right now. We’re the way your friends felt for this last year. But we’re facing a very stable government. And one thing we have to ask ourselves is how do we fight much more significantly and much more effectively? I think educational institutions have to be far more overtly political, not partisan, but political.

There is a public sphere that we have to fight for. There will be another election, worst case scenario, in four years. I’ve already had our team thinking about it, but we basically have to stop everything that we’re doing and ask, okay, this was your business plan? What’s your plan? But vis a vis North American Jewry, where I’m even more worried.

In Israel, we’re gonna fight. And one of the things we learned is that the public sphere is not just shaped by the government. There is a very vibrant civic society, and it’s always more complicated. But there is a current among certain segments of North America who were just waiting or who were holding on with a thread, they were holding on with a thread.

And how do we make sure that they don’t leave? Because as we know from Humpty Dumpty, you can’t always put things back together again. Here in Israel, we’ll be able to. It will be bad, it will be negative, and I think there could be some very significant changes that present in Israel very far from the Israel that I believe in.

But I believe one of our responsibilities is, how do we create a far more vibrant sense of partnership for people in North America with liberal Jewish sensibilities? It’s not gonna come from the government, it’s not gonna come nationally, but there has to be a sense that you have an address. There has to be a sense that North American Jews have access to be able to participate in a fight for the Israel that they want.

Because if they don’t believe that they could fight for an Israel that they want. Yossi, they’re just gonna check out. This is not the results obviously that I yearned for. There are grave dangers that we face and, um, I don’t think any of us fully knows how to respond, but I do know that we have to throw our game plan out and have the courage to recognize failure. And to up our game very, very dramatically. 

How we do so is gonna be a critical question in the next, uh, month or two. 

Yossi: Yeah, I think it’s, uh, 

Donniel: Where are you, Yossi? 

Yossi: I think it’s premature. To come up with a, um, a game plan right now, Uh, I think we need to define the areas where we’re going to be severely challenged.

The first is within Israeli society, specifically relations between Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis. And that’s something that we, here at the Institutes have committed ourselves to, we’ve restructured the institute over the last year in a way that we’re now really a model, I think, of an Israeli Jewish institution that takes its responsibilities to Arab Israelis seriously. And the cohesiveness, the most minimal sense of decency in Israeli society is going to be under sustained threat. 

The second area of consequences, what you were speaking about, which is our relationship with world Jewry, but really, we mean for the most part, American Jewry, because Jewish communities in Europe, Latin America, elsewhere, they tend to align with Israel no matter what.

They feel vulnerable for all kinds of reasons. They have a, a strong stomach when it comes to Israel. Uh, it’s really liberal American Jewry that I’m worried about, and here I think we need to directly appeal to a new, a new kind of relationship, which again, is something we’ve been speaking about here at the institute for years.

But now we have an emergency on the table and there needs to be a shared agenda between the liberal mainstream of Israel and the American Jewish liberal mainstream. And I’m emphasizing liberal because the natural allies for liberal American Jews is the center, center right, center left, and it’s not the far left.

And this is something that, uh, many American Jews really will need to, I think we think, which is that the game in Israel now, the political divide is not right versus left. That’s an old story. It’s right versus center. Again, whether it’s center left, center right. But we need to figure out ways of strengthening the relationship between the American Jewish mainstream and the center.

And finally, Israel’s place in the world. And this is something that, uh, I mean, as you know, I’ve been dealing with for many years and my job and those like me, whose job it is to, uh, push back against the attempts to criminalize Israel. Uh, our job has just gotten considerably harder. This is a major gift to those who are seeking to turn Israel into a pariah state.

And so, um, these are the three areas that I’m struggling with, and there’s some overlap with all three. And what happens in one of these areas tends to impact on the others. 

Donniel: Are you optimistic? 

Yossi: No. Optimistic is the wrong word. I’m, like you, I was anticipating this all day, which is why I think we’ve been walking around with a cloud over our heads.

But I am, uh, it’s not a question of optimism or pessimism. As we said earlier, I am ready to fight. I’m going to fight for the Israel that I believe in, the Israel that I love. And I’m, uh, I’m part of a very large camp, a very substantial camp, and you are right. We’re going to need to figure out ways of speaking to those in the other camp. We need to figure out ways of re-establishing a minimal sense of us, and not just us versus them.

But at the same time there is an unavoidable element of us versus them here, and there’s no getting around it. 

Donniel: People always say that let the radicals come in power and the minute they come into power, their criticism of the others changes and now they have to become more moderate.

Yossi: Yeah. 

Donniel: Somehow it doesn’t feel relevant to this one, does it? 

Yossi: No, it’s 

Donniel: because what’s on the table are certain core issues of the power of the Supreme Court to defend minorities, funding, um, issues of settlements. 

Yossi: Look, I remember 

Donniel: What is, what are the United Emirates, what is the Abraham Accords gonna look like?

There’s, there’s certain things. There is in a sense that, oh, don’t worry, everything, doesn’t feel that way this time. 

Yossi: No. And you know, there’s this, there’s a Bolshevik mindset, which is the worst things get, the better it’ll be for my camp. I don’t believe that at all. 

Donniel: Yeah, I never liked that. Like people said, oh, let em have it. Let them run it. Let ’em ruin the country. And when they’re all ruined, they’ll recognize that they need me, but by then it’s ruined. 

Yossi: By then the country God forbid is ruined. 

I think that what people don’t understand about Ben Gvir and Smotrich is that what motivates them primarily is not ideology, but theology. And extremists who deeply believe, and I mean, believe in a religious sense, don’t moderate. And, uh, I hesitate to make this, uh, comparison, but uh, to some extent I think it’s justified. 

I remember when Hamas first came into power. People were saying, ah, what are you worried about? Now they’re going to have to be responsible for taking out the garbage. And you’ll see that they’re going to become more practical minded.

Theologies, extreme theologies don’t work that way. And Ben Gvir in his soul, and I, I deeply believe this remains a Kahanist. And Kahanasism is not a political ideology. It’s, it’s an apocalyptic theology. 

Donniel: As a head of an institution, I have no luxury to not develop a game plan and to develop a game plan quickly. That game plan will have to be flexible, it’ll have to adjust, but we have hundreds of people on our faculty, tens of millions of dollars in our budget, hundreds of thousands of people who come to study and who access Israel and Judaism through this institution. And, um, there is no doubt that these results reflect a break.

A break in our vision, a break in our hope, and a serious challenge for the future. Our generation is now gonna be tested in ways that we were never tested before. Our ancestors were tested this way. We had it easy. We really did. We post-67 Jews. We had some challenges, but relatively we had it easy. 

And uh, sometimes when I look at the founders of this country or about the people who had to exit Europe and to build a life and all that they achieved, I think we’re gonna be tested to see, you know, you can give up or are we gonna be able to create a significant sustained program of action to deliver and to fight for the soul of this country. 

You know, we say it all, beforehand, it was a slogan, but now it is a reality. Our ancestors didn’t know if we would have a country, they had to dry the swamps. They had to turn deserts and make them bloom and whatever it was that, they had to fight against impossible odds.

Our odds aren’t impossible, but there is a grave danger and we have to be effective. We have to be smart. We have to not be self-righteous. 

Yossi: It’s difficult. 

Donniel: It’s difficult. Maybe we’re also gonna have to be open to partners on the other side that we never thought were gonna be our partners. 

Serious days lie ahead of us and you’re all very quiet and I appreciate it. You’re, many of you are feeling what we’re feeling. Okay. It’s time, it’s time for a game plan, and it’ll be time for tremendous partnerships between institutions. We need a fight. Uh, 

Yossi: Well, Donniel, all I can say is, uh, I’m really glad that, uh, that I’m here. I’m glad that this place exists. And I’m really glad to have gone through this, uh, this trauma tonight with you. 

Donniel: Yeah. The trauma, I believe is gonna start tomorrow morning.

For heaven’s Sake is the product of the Shalom Hartman Institute. It was produced by David Zvi Kalman, edited by Gareth Hobbs at Silver Sound NYC. Our production manner is M Louis Gordon. 

Transcripts of our show are now available on our website, typically a week after an episode airs. To find them and to learn more about the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit us online at shalomhartman.org. We wanna know what you think about the show. You can rate and review us on iTunes, tell more people to discover the show.

You can also write to us at, [email protected] Subscribe to our show in the Apple podcast app, Spotify, SoundCloud, Audible, and everywhere else that broadcasts are available. You know, maybe somehow reading this makes me feel that life is still normal. Um, uh, Yossi I want to thank you. Thank you. And to our audience, uh, breathe, go to sleep, and tomorrow we have a lot of work to do. Layla tov.