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Thoughtful debate elevates us all. Donniel Hartman, Yossi Klein Halevi, and Elana Stein Hain revive the Jewish art of constructive discussion on topics related to political and social trends in Israel, Israel-Diaspora relations, and the collective consciousness of being Jewish.
The podcast draws its name from the concept of machloket l’shem shemayim, “disagreeing for the sake of heaven” and is part of the Institute’s iEngage Project.
Israel at War — Israel Tomorrow Transcript
Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.
Donniel: Hi, this is Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi, and this is For Heaven’s Sake.
Yossi: We should do this every week, Donniel.
Donniel: And this is For Heaven’s Sake, Israel at War, and today is day 264. And today’s session is being broadcast live, but also taped in front of a live audience of For Heaven’s Sake’s community, and our lay leadership who’s joined us here at the Hartman Institute, some 250 people strong, who have come to Israel to learn, to be with Israel. And it’s really an honor, can I speak for both of us?
Yossi: I think you can.
Donniel: For my friend Yossi and I to be in front of you. And today’s podcast is sponsored by also one of my closest friends in the world. One of my most long standing partners, Bob Kogod, and tonight is also under the Robert P. Kogod, but I know him as Bob, Annual Lecture.
Our theme for today is Israel’s morning after. So much attention is spent on what is the morning after going to look like in Gaza? How do we bring the war to an end? What does it look like? How do we bring our hostages home? What is the closure that Israel needs in order to feel that some of the rupture and destruction of October 7th has been repaired? The world is looking at Gaza. How do we bring it to an end? What does it look like? How do we give it a new future?
But today, you and I decided that we don’t want to talk about the day after in Gaza. We want to talk about the day after in Israel. What is Israel’s day after? How do we change? What is our society going to look like? And what is our country? Where do we need to go? Where can we go?
And so, let’s begin our conversation. What’s your, when you think about Israel’s day after? What are some of its key elements and components that, you know, like, we Jews always try to think about tomorrow. So, what’s your tomorrow? What does it include? Where does it go?
Yossi: The prerequisite to my tomorrow, which is really another way of saying the prerequisite to the beginning of Israel’s healing, are really, I’d say, twofold. The first is whoever is left alive among the hostages returns home, and the second is that this terrible government is brought down. We have new elections, and we have a unity government of some fashion that comes in. And we can discuss what that unity government might look like. But that for me, that’s the prerequisite for the morning after.
Donniel: There is no morning after that you could even talk about unless those two are there?
Yossi: No. This government cannot bring us into the morning after.
Donniel: And if the hostages aren’t home?
Yossi: It’s an open wound.
Donniel: We’re still in Gaza.
Yossi: We’re still in October 7th.
Donniel: We’re still in October 7th.
Yossi: So those are the two prerequisites. Now, what the beginning of a morning after might look like. First of all, the makeup of what this government would be. Some configuration resembling the previous government with adjustments. I could see parts of the Likud joining that government. There’s a real restlessness now that’s beginning to emerge. I could see the Likud splitting.
To my mind, Ben Gvir has to be as far away as possible from positions of power. And I would say that in the next government, and I’m not speaking about the government after, the next government has to be without the ultra-Orthodox parties because the changes that have to be made in Israeli society include their community very deeply. And we’re beginning to see that happening now.
And one more point. So far, really what I’ve talked about is more, let’s say structural changes that have to happen. There’s a substantive change as well. And that is beginning to rethink the way in which policy is made. In which one half of the country tries to impose its will on the other half. And this is an Israeli tendency that goes back to the 1990s. It goes back to the Oslo process. When the labor government had the smallest majority and then it lost its parliamentary majority and through various parliamentary tricks,
Donniel: I think it included a Mitsubishi giving a car to somebody to
Yossi: To someone from the right, yes, they bribed, they literally gave him a car.
Donniel: Literally gave him a Mitsubishi, that was considered a good car back then.
Yossi: Mitsubishi, it’s a whole concept and I hate to think what it would be like today, but, how do we change the way in which we make decisive changes, whether it’s questions of peace, borders, territory, settlements, whether it’s a question of judicial reform, and whether the mechanism would be a referendum or a serious parliamentary majority rather than a majority of one, which is currently the case.
So these are some of the elements that I think are really essential in just laying the ground for the healing that needs to happen and then for rethinking the ways in which we relate to each other.
Donniel: Can I challenge what I think is a little contradiction? Your Israel after requires a healing of the way we make some of our most significant policy decisions in which there isn’t, it’s not a zero sum game and that our politicians have to understand that a simple majority in the Knesset doesn’t constitute the mandate for significant societal change unless you reach across the partisan lines.
Yossi: That’s what I meant to say.
Donniel: The one exception, the one exception, though, is the Haredim. It’s interesting.
Yossi: Yes, yes, it is a contradiction.
Donniel: I’m like, people, they look at me and they think that they know my opinion. How are we going to heal Israeli society unless we deal with 10-15 percent of our country? We all have this one group that it’s easy to dislike. You know, it’s, you’re not Haredi, I’m not Haredi. But doesn’t it contradict a little bit? Like we’re going to hit, and, but you’re willing to take that contradiction?
Yossi: Yes. Well, I’m speaking about the Zionist majority, which under this government, tore itself apart. And the core, the basis for healing Israel has to be that moderate centrist, center left, center right. That 60%, 70%, whatever it is, that’s the basis for healing. And how do we draw the Haredim, the ultra Orthodox, into, at least part of the ultra Orthodox, into that process of healing?
Donniel: You know. It’s so interesting, because why can’t we have a coalition, which includes Haredim, and includes Israeli Arab Palestinians, but people could join a coalition and know that they’re joining a larger coalition, and from the beginning, not everything they want, they’re going to get. Why can’t we say to the Haredim, I want you in this coalition. I want to look after your society. You’re, you’re one of my citizens, just like every Israeli Arab Palestinian. I have an obligation to them. They’re my citizens. So are the Haredim.
Now I happen to personally believe that a forced draft of Haredim will never work. I think it’ll never work and it will just create this faux sense of unity amongst the non Haredim. All of us together, we have somebody that we could hate.
Yossi: We’re not going to go into the study halls and drag these people out.
Donniel: We’re not going to do it. And they’re going to, I just read today that they raised a hundred million, even though that’s nothing compared to the amount that they get. It’s the beginning.
Yossi: Abroad.
Donniel: Right. But I’m wondering if part of your coalition that you’re speaking about also needs to happen before you come into the coalition. That if we’re talking about Israel tomorrow, it’s about joining a coalition and knowing that you’re going to be sitting with people who disagree with you and you’re going to get some of the things that you want, but you’re not going to get all the things that you want. And then you could decide.
But this crazy reality of this government in which every party was able to write their own platform, whether they contradicted each other, whether Likud agreed with it or not, here, literally, we know that the coalition agreements this time involve giving people a blank piece of paper and say, write whatever you want. Write whatever you want, and don’t worry, Abba Bibi will be there, and ho! He’ll work it out. He’ll work it out. Because I agree very much that we need a new culture, but I don’t think we’re going to start that new culture if we don’t include Haredim and if we don’t include Israeli Arab Palestinians at the table.
But I want to offer just for a couple of minutes,
Yossi: Let me just, let me just respond to that point.
Donniel: Please, sure.
Yossi: I agree with you about the Haredim for the next government. This government has to make a very brutal decision. And that is either to forcibly draft the Haredim, which I agree with you is a non starter, or begin cutting off the funding for the yeshiva world. No Haredi party will sit in a government that is cutting off funding. They may join a government once the new arrangement has been put in place.
Donniel: You know, it’s interesting to think about what does it mean, I’m actually afraid of the next government. The one after. The one after, because I don’t know what’s going to be. This next government, according to all the polls, like our sense is that elections are coming closer. We don’t know when, but they’re not coming in the winter of 2026. Something is imploding. You could see the Likud party is imploding upon itself. All of a sudden there are members of the Likud party who are developing, I don’t know if I want to call it a conscience, but,
Yossi: A spine, a spine.
Donniel: No, I wouldn’t call it a voice because I haven’t heard anything from any one of them, but now we’re hearing a word or two from them, right? There’s something. So elections are coming. I think the idea of reaching out to coalition partners and saying to them, we don’t need you for the majority. We have 70 seats. But I want you at the table. So you can hop in.
Yossi: You’re speaking about the Haredim now.
Donniel: Haredim, Israeli Arab Palestinians, anybody. Everybody. The way this next election looks, we’re not going to have a 35 seat party. We’re going to have maybe one or two 20 seat parties. And another five or six 10 seat parties. Basically, it’s going to be a, one of the beautiful things, it’s, it’s bipartisanship in Israel in its best sense, because it’s not either-or. Like, the Israeli system is insane, but it’s actually very healthy. Because everybody’s voice, people don’t feel that they’re losing their voices. My voices are represented.
And our hope, if I understood, is that after October 7th, we’re going to want to heal. And maybe people remember that healing. You know, I want to go back and give Naftali Bennett great credit. Because he ignored his constituency. Feels like a lifetime ago. I can’t even tell you how many years ago. It was something. When he said, it’s not about my popularity, I have to at this moment serve the country and the same spirit, which motivated people to serve after October 7th, Naftali Bennett in many ways committed what at the time seemed like suicide. Now it’s turning out, in a post October 7th world, that that’s the type of leader we’re looking for and he’s just emerged.
Yossi: I would also throw in a strong honorable mention for Yair Lapid who gave up his first crack at the prime ministership and, for the sake of, of creating, of creating government.
Donniel: So that spirit is part of the morning after. I want to add two other components. One which is I think one of the major sources of, I don’t know if it’s a combination of fear and sadness, Yossi. I don’t think most Israelis feel that we have a government for the people. We have a government by the people. And a democracy is government by the people who are for the people.
And part of the angst that we’re feeling, because there’s huge, huge, we don’t know what’s going to happen with Hezbollah. We don’t know what’s going to happen with Iran. We don’t know what’s happening with the United States. There’s so many tensions. There’s so many pressures. Like you open up the news and it’s, you know, I’m obsessive about following, I can’t even count how many newspapers I follow or whatever they’re called, websites, I’m like dizzy sometimes. You just sit and listen, there’s this onslaught, just like the drones. You know, the drones are coming, how many, there’s an onslaught of issues every single day, and there’s a disquiet in this country because it is not a government for the people. It’s a government which wants to maintain its own survival. It’s a government which has other agendas, speaking to themselves.
But the majority of Israelis, the vast majority of Israelis, you know, there’s even 50 percent of those who voted for this government won a new election. Not to speak of the 90 percent who didn’t vote. Israel needs a government for the people. And I think I have never experienced in my lifetime a moment of such momentous challenges in which I wasn’t sure that my government was for the people.
And part of my morning after, we need that tikkun. And it’s the next government, it almost doesn’t matter, it does matter, but let’s assume it almost doesn’t matter who wins, even though it does, and we know more or less what the numbers look like. People have to feel that to be a public servant is to be a shaliach tzibor, is to serve the people.
Yossi: I think it’s a beautiful point and really just to sharpen the problematics of this government. First of all, what we’re envisioning is a resurrection of some form of unity government. And the next government will likely be left, center, right. Some form, in some configuration. This government is the most homogeneous that we’ve ever had. It’s right, further right, furthest right.
Donniel: And also very self-serving. They’re very comfortable. They’re all looking after. That’s why the Haredi vote was such a challenge. Because this is a government in which we’re there to serve each other, in many ways.
Yossi: And this is the first time since this government was formed that we’re beginning to see some cracks. And that’s really significant. The other thing about the nature of this government is that it’s a convergence of political extremism, corruption, and incompetence, sheer incompetence. The civil service is falling apart, something that we’re not even paying close attention to.
Donniel: You know, since we have a live audience, let’s not depress them too much on the first episode.
Yossi: But the good news, the good news is that the change is coming. The change is coming.
Donniel: The change is coming.
Yossi: And we have hit with, as far as governments go, this was rock bottom.
Donniel: I want to add one other component of this day after that I’m thinking a lot about. And it grows out of the unity government idea, which you’re right, everybody, there’s even movements now, political movements whose major aim is the only government we want is a unity government, which is, it’s such a strange concept. You know, here you have elections, someone’s running to win and we want Israelis to run so that we all win, which is just an interesting concept.
Yossi: That most of us win.
Donniel: Most of us, fair enough, but the, correct, but there’s one thing that I want to caution. I know we’re going to have to think about this, Yossi, because it’s coming. One of the features of a unity government is that for the sake of unity, very often, it doesn’t tackle some of Israel’s most significant challenges. Because if we’re disagreeing, you know, it’s consensus by making sure that the other issues just don’t rise. We don’t talk about it. So the last unity government said, we’re not going to talk about Palestinian sovereignty, ending the conflict. We’re not going to do any of that. And Meretx could sit in the government, far, far left, because it didn’t just, it wasn’t on the table.
I think post-October 7th, for me, the most, one of the most important lessons of October 7th is that we can’t stay and continue to stay in a status quo as a people. We can’t take the most significant questions and challenges we face, whether they’re internal, state and religion, religious pluralism, diversity, tribes, Israeli Jews, Israeli Arab Palestinians, the West Bank, Gaza, Iran, whatever it might be. These questions are questions that we seriously debate as a society.
So what are we going to do? We’re going to join a coalition, which will be a unity government for the sake of the people. And how are we going to respond to some of these questions? And our answer will be, we’re working on unity right now. And I appreciate it. We’re working on a government that’s serving the people, but there has to be a larger telos beyond unity and beyond serving the people, leading the people, asking.
Israel tomorrow needs a unity government, but unity governments are often remarkably unimaginative. One of Netanyahu’s greatest advantages, and as you know, I never voted for Netanyahu, but I had a very, very profound respect for him up till the last three, four years. And his greatest ability was that when a critical issue for the future of Israel arose, he said, I’m taking the lead and it doesn’t matter who voted for it or cared about it. This is what we need to do and that’s what we’re going to do. And people followed him and the people trusted that he would do that.
Now, a unity government by definition doesn’t have that type of leadership. Let’s say it’s a Bennett, whatever it might be. Bennett’s gonna sit together, now everybody’s making a list. And it’s a list of 30 people, all of whom want to be number one. You know, it’s like it’s this, good luck. If he could succeed in negotiating that, he can negotiate anything in the world.
But, you know, because you have Bennett, and you have Lieberman, and you have Sa’ar, and you have Yossi Cohen, and now you might have a whole bunch of people who realize that the Likud post-Netanyahu is just going to be like Labor, and it’s going to maybe get five, maybe ten seats, so why would I stay there? And you’re going to have a list of people, all of whom want to be prime minister. And then what are we going to get?
Right now, Yossi, there’s, like, my lesson of October 7th is, we can’t go back to status quo life.
Yossi: See, I agree with you. The question is, what are the areas where a unity government, again, in some configuration, can move forward, can really start to change the reality here? And what are the areas where it can’t?
Donniel: So on this, let’s go to the second half. And now, you know, for me, as a rabbi, this is a fantasy. Because we’re going to pretend that we’re political pundits. Like you’re a little better at it than I am. But now, I’m not going to talk about the portion of the
Yossi: I can pretend to be a rabbi.
Donniel: It’s true. We’re not going to, we’re not going to do the portion of the week and why the events that are occurring speak exactly to what’s happening. And it couldn’t have been next week. Let’s put on crystal balls. And maybe it’s hope. It’s not just fantasy. I don’t want us to fantasize. But realistically, as people who have been following and are really studying what’s happening, I’m not saying nobody knows, you know, prophecies, our tradition has great disrespect for them post the rabbinic era. Post the prophets, yes.
What do you think, with this unity government, which itself is an aspiration, what do you think is possible? It’s like, what could happen in our country? What changes could be on the horizon?
Yossi: The elements that we’ve already discussed that we hope will happen, I believe will happen.
First of all, your concern for good government, for a government that’s responsive to the people, that sees itself as a servant of the people, that’s what this next government will be like, in the way that the Bennett government really represented that ethos. My hope for a government that will change the ground rules in the relationship of the ultra-Orthodox to the mainstream, I believe that will be at the top of the agenda.
Donniel: What do you think they’re going to do? What is achievable in your mind?
Yossi: To drastically reduce the funding.
Donniel: Funding.
Yossi: Yeah, that’s how this is going to work.
Donniel: And how will that, that’ll be one part. And what will that do in your mind?
Yossi: At the same time, one has to offer alternative funding for training, for re-education, preparing young people for the workforce. You can’t just simply cut off the funding. You’re going to have a vast crisis on your hands. It will, the community will go hungry.
Donniel: So funding is the beginning of a societal transformation, you believe?
Yossi: Yes. With the Haredim.
Donniel: With the Haredim.
Yossi: The other piece is, and this is something you and I have talked about in previous episodes, which is, there is need for judicial reform. We all know it. It can’t be under the gun. It has to be through consensus. And I would hope that this government’s response to the attempted judicial coup of the previous government is to initiate thoughtful judicial reform. But notice that all of the changes that I’m speaking about are domestic. Not talking about the Palestinians. I think we’re going to go up against a brick wall there.
But there’s one final factor here which we, you touched on a little bit. You mentioned in passing Hezbollah, Iran. I want to put that front and center. Because assuming that the war in Gaza will wind down, and it’s not the war in Gaza. It’s the first phase of the Israeli-Iranian war. And the next phase, which I think is inevitable, will be with Hezbollah. And the reason I think it’s inevitable is because we have a hundred thousand Israeli internal refugees who will not be able to move back to their homes until Hezbollah is removed from the border. This is the first time in Israel’s history where we have a security zone, not Israel, over the border, but within our borders in the north. And that situation is untenable.
So how the Palestinian issue, Palestinian crisis, tragedy, deadlock will be resolved, begin to be resolved, will in part be determined by the next phase of this war with one more crucial component, the Saudis. The war with the Sunni world could be winding down if the Saudis genuinely step up, and the war with the Shiite world could be replacing the Israeli-Sunni war.
Donniel: There’s something that you taught me. You know, we’ve been really close friends now for, I don’t know, 15 years. We’ve been talking with each other.
Yossi: Doing this without a microphone.
Donniel: Doing this without a, before anybody even joined into our conversation. So, and as we joke very often, we don’t have a clue that we’re talking to anybody. We just sit down and talk to each other. And then we discover there happens to be some people. Hi everyone. Just don’t get in the way. There’s something that you taught me that I always ignored. I was in Iran, I said, ah, you know, maybe I, cause I never relate to apocalyptic catastrophes. I don’t relate to them because it sort of doesn’t work with my optimism. It’s like, as an optimist, you don’t really have a lot of room for apocalypse.
Yossi: I’d rather live in your world than mine.
Donniel: I know, but we can’t. And I must admit, I would rather live in mine as well.
Yossi: The bad news is we both live in mine.
Donniel: But there’s something you taught me. First of all, you taught me that I have to think about Iran. That I have to have an opinion about it. That I have to take it very seriously. And you said, I think, before almost anybody, that That the greatest danger facing the state of Israel is Iran. And I was living in a world in which every danger we face is manageable. I was the full Zionist. You were more a post-Holocaust Jew. I was the Zionist who believed we can do whatever we need to do and let’s stop worrying.
So first, you put Iran in my consciousness. Thank you very much. And now the reality is nobody doesn’t have Iran in their story. Nobody. So it’s not some great innovation like I’ve had a great enlightenment. Everybody knows that’s there. We’re feeling it every day. But you once said in some iEngage conversation that we had, that it is precisely because Iran is the most significant challenge that we face, that everything else, we need to be willing to compromise on, in order to achieve the type of strategic advantages we need to have in order to deal with Iran.
Yossi: I know where this is going.
Donniel: And so now, I know this is just, so,
Yossi: I hate to be quoted against myself.
Donniel: You know how we all use arguments and facts to reaffirm what we believe beforehand, right? So it looks like I’m changing it and I’m turning it around and saying, you see, now you’re reinforcing my opinions. But in fact, if I had to put my crystal ball on, I really believe that over the next number of years, we’re going to see a very significant progress on the Palestinian front. I think it’s going to start in Gaza and you could hear it. Now people are talking about changing the leadership in the north or the south. They’re already saying, you know, the words, it’s, it’s coming. You can’t destroy Hamas as an ideology, but you can destroy Hamas as long as there are alternatives. The army speaks about it. Even Tzachi Hanegbi, everybody’s talking. It’s not just Blinken. Even though I think he’s a real serious man and a great friend of Israel. I really do, as I think so about the President of the United States.
Yossi: I agree with you.
Donniel: Exactly. I know that. But my comfort here as an Israeli, my ability to feel that my grandchildren are safe right now in some form, is directly a result of the unbelievable support that we’ve received from this administration.
And I’m not getting into whether he’ll be better than another president or another president. We’re not getting into American politics, but I, you know, there’s a thanks that needs to be given. But we know that something’s going to have to happen in Gaza because our soldiers aren’t going to be able to be the policemen there. We know that we need the involvement of our Sunni allies and also some of our Sunni enemies.
You know, Eli Cohen, one of the people who are, who wants to be number one on the list, the former Mossad person was asked, you know, the Prime Minister of Israel said that Qatar is our worst enemy and he said, you know, I don’t think those comments are that helpful, he said. You know, there’s problems, but they’re also helpful.
There is a Sunni world that we’re going to have to call upon to help bring us to the day after that we’re not talking about today, which is the day after in Gaza. And there is a potential for a larger international engagement with Israel and where a lot of the alienation caused by the war could be overcome. And that’s only going to happen if some progress happens on the Palestinian front.
I happen to even, you know, I think the Trump peace plan that I’ve, we’ve spoken about in which area A and B is given to the Palestinian something, and with a capital in Jerusalem, things that Trump offered and that Netanyahu agreed to, and it is only Mahmoud Abbas who turned it, something to bring Saudis and to bring the end of a conflict between the Jews and the Sunnis is just so, it’s around the corner, it’s necessary, it’s so much in our benefit. We’re not going to resolve the Palestinian conflict because we now turn around and say I love you. We’re not going to resolve it because we’re now going to turn around and say I trust you. We’re not going to resolve it because now we think yes, the wolf is lying down with the lamb. We’re only going to resolve it if we understand that we have a much greater interest that needs to be solved.
Yossi: So, first of all, I don’t believe we’re going to resolve the Palestinian conflict, at least not in this generation. I think that what we need to do is to, first of all, reverse this government’s commitment to annexation. This is the first government since 1967 that has made annexation an official part of its platform. Not even the Begin and Shamir governments of the 1980s explicitly saw annexation as their goal. Settlement expansion, of course. And so, first of all, we need to undo this historic and, to my mind, disastrous change in policy. Secondly, we need to really start thinking about containing settlement expansion.
Now, if we manage to achieve those two goals with this next government, I think that could be a basis for some form of normalization with the Saudis.
Donniel: But since it’s my crystal ball, I want to go a little further.
Yossi: But you did say, you did say within the realm of reality.
Donniel: Within the realm of reality. That’s true. Those were good, I appreciate them. I actually think it’s very realistic. Because what’s resolving a conflict, I have a different definition of what it means. It’s not about us being friends. The wounds of October 7th in the Jewish community in Israel are going to take years. I also know that there are profound wounds in the Palestinian community.
I’m not talking about us being friends. I’m talking about, in my crystal ball, there are certain geopolitical forces that are going to be at play. There’s going to be proposals put on the table which aren’t going to resolve settlement dismantlement because that would be civil war. There’s going to be something put down. It’s in Saudi interest, it’s in American interest. And by the way, and again, I’m not getting into American politics, but anyone in Israel who heard Donald Trump, being interviewed on Israeli television, knows that the minute he gets elected he’s going to be looking, as he said, finish what you’ve done, you’ve ruined your reputation in the world, and then he said, and then we have to get down to peace.
So whether it is one government or another government in America, there’s going to be pressure that this war is too dangerous for the world. Something’s going to happen above. our pay grade, I’m worried that Israelis aren’t psychologically prepared for it, but my one hope, and then I’ll give you last comment before we conclude, also depending on what you say, but our listeners know that, but I’m going to give you the last word, the caveat.
I think part of the idea of a government for the people is a government which makes decisions that are self evidently in Israel’s interest, that even when their ideology did not make room for it, that when you’re serving the people, compromises become possible. Not out of enlightenment, that all of a sudden there’s something I didn’t think of, but that the pressures that the people face, the well-being of Israel, like even, you know, like Galant is in United States right now. And what does he say? He says, of course we have disagreements, but amongst friends, we work out our disagreements behind closed doors. We don’t put forth videos and go on Channel 14.
That spirit of the well-being of Israel, I think it’s going to move us. And I have to tell you, I’m actually starting to feel not just optimistic, which I feel regardless of reality, I’m starting to feel hopeful. I see the beginning of the morning after around the corner and it might be a year, but I see it coming and I think changes aren’t just going to be happening within the state of Israel. I think we’re, we’re on the verge of something more majestic, not love, not peace, but the beginning of another dimension to our existence.
And now, Yossi, last word.
Yossi: I share your hope about the morning after for Israel internally. As far as the Palestinian question goes, there are two takeaways from October 7th and they’re opposite takeaways. The first, which is virtually consensus today among Jewish Israelis is — a Palestinian state? You’ve got to be out of your mind. We’re not going to duplicate Gaza on our most sensitive border which is the West Bank’s border with Greater Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. I speak to friends on the left, that’s what I hear. And you can imagine what people are saying center right.
There’s a second takeaway, which is the opposite. Which is that maybe Sharon was right, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who took us forcibly out of Gaza. Imagine if we were still ruling two million Gazans. October 7th would be a permanent part of our internal reality. We would be internalizing the conflict. And so I don’t think Israelis are there yet with that second takeaway, but depending what happens with Iran, depending what happens with the Saudis, the second takeaway could begin to make sense.
And I also hear a shift, you know, in our conversations over the years in you’re saying that you’re not really looking for peace in the sense of reconciliation. It may not be that, at least not initially, at least not initially. And so the question really is, can we go for the second October 7th takeaway, which is these two peoples cannot live together in one political framework. That was Sharon’s insight. Sharon built the settlements in Gaza. Sharon’s vision was annexation, and he returns as an elder statesman, as prime minister, and realizes it’s not going to work. And he has the courage to dismantle the settlements that he himself built. We forget that. What an extraordinary moment that was.
Donniel: I’m sorry. I cut you off.
Yossi: I still have the last word.
Donniel: You have the last word. Go.
Yossi: But if you want to say something before my last, last word.
Donniel: No, no, you get the last, last, last, and then I’m going to give you a surprise.
Yossi: So the question really is, first of all, is that second takeaway still viable? And I think that if we reframe it for Israelis, not in terms of peace, but in terms of separation, which brings us back to the Yitzhak Rabin understanding of what a deal would look like. Rabin didn’t speak of peace, spoke of separation. Shimon Peres spoke of peace. These were two very different approaches. And so that combination of a return to a different conception of a relationship with a Palestinian entity, I can’t be any more cautious than that. And at the same time, looking at the wider geopolitical map and thinking of what are the changes that will force us to perhaps come to that conclusion.
Donniel: Since I promised you a last word, I want to, I won’t speak. I’m going to let our colleague, Tal Becker speak, who has joined us as vice president of the Shalom Hartman Institute. One of his most powerful lines that I’ve heard over and over and over, I think it’s part of this conversation when he said throughout history, there are things which at the time seem impossible. And then once they occur, they seem to have been inevitable. Where that is in our conversation, well, our crystal ball won’t tell us, time will tell.
Yossi, it was a pleasure as always. This is For Heaven’s Sake, Israel at war. And I just want to say, you know, every time the number goes up 264 and it’s not just 264 days. Since the war started, it’s 264 days in which our hostages are still not home and in hell. And may that change in the very, very near future. Amen. Thank you.
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