About

Thoughtful debate elevates us all. In For Heaven’s Sake, Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi revive the Jewish art of constructive discussion on topics related to political and social trends in Israel, Israel-Diaspora relations, and the future of Zionism in Israel and on the global stage.

The podcast draws its name from the concept of machloket l’shem shemayim, “disagreeing for the sake of heaven” and is part of the Institute’s iEngage Project.

Zelenskyy Transcript

Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.
Donniel: Hi friends, this is Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute, and this is our podcast For Heaven’s Sake, Israel at Ceasefire. Today is day 516, 59 hostages still in Gaza. Many things have happened this week, which are capturing, shaking, unsettling Israeli society.

Stage one of the hostage deal, as we said last week, came to a conclusion. And Hamas rejected Israel and the United States’ attempt to extend stage one. Because the issue of stage two is that Israel has to officially agree to a ceasefire and to pulling all of its troops out of Gaza. And increasingly, it seems evident that Israel’s not willing to do so. The new chief of staff, who was just appointed today, made very clear that we’re facing a Hamas that is reestablishing itself.

And it might be in the near future, we’re going to have to go back to Israel at war, from Israel at ceasefire. And what that means for the hostages and for our country is very unclear. And we’re going to have to talk about that in the weeks to come. It’s this limbo period, which is very unsettling.

And part of what increases this feeling of unsettling-ness, I think I made up that word, is our theme for today. Our theme is Zelenskyy. The meeting between Vice President Vance and President Trump and Zelenskyy in the Oval Office, and analyzing this from the perspective of what it means for Israeli society. Our mandate is not global political analysis, but rather to understand how these events are influencing our future and the way we understand our role and what we need to do in the world and for ourselves.

And this meeting followed a series of events, starting with President Trump’s declaration that Ukraine attacked Russia. And Israel, unlike other European countries, we had no voice, and our lack of voice was accentuated when we joined Russia, China, and North Korea in our refusal to vote in condemnation or even in recognition, condemnation of Russia’s invasion of the Ukraine. We’re living in another world. We’re living in Trump’s shadow. And what does that mean for us? That’s our theme for today.

The meeting with Zelenskyy is just the focal point. And talked about in Israel, it was a major, major source of discussion and concern. Because in many ways, where Zelenskyy goes, goes Israel. It’s like, we parallel, are we not? And so, Yossi, let’s try to understand, how do you understand this? What does it mean for us? Are the rules changing?

Yossi: So, Donniel, before I deal with your question, I want to note how relentlessly self-referential Israelis are. Here we are, we’re talking about Ukraine, Zelenskyy, a three-year bitter war of survival. And of course, we’re going to talk about how this affects us.

Donniel: Okay, that’s a great, great point, Yossi. It’s such a great point that I’m not even aware of it.

Yossi: It’s funny, neither was I, you know, when we decided on this topic. I said, well, of course that’s what we’re going to talk about, Zelenskyy and us.

Donniel: You know, Yossi, I’m embarrassed. I’m not going to ask us to re-tape this because we don’t do that. And I think it’s really important. But your statement has now made me embarrassed. OK. Maybe our mandate of For Heaven’s Sake is to be…

Yossi: Provincial.

Donniel: Provincial and belly button grazing. So OK.

Yossi: Okay, so now I’ll embarrass myself and answer your question.

Donniel: Thank you though for that comment, I think, you know, I feel better for it.

Yossi: Yeah, every so often we have to step out of ourselves, look at ourselves, and then proceed as if we hadn’t made that comment.

Donniel: I feel better for it. I feel that that comment was really good for me. So thank you very much. It was a really well-delivered rebuke. Go on, please.

Yossi: So, you know what hit me hardest in this, of course again as an Israeli, was our disgraceful vote in the UN. We lined up with North Korea, China, Russia, and voted against the only other country in the world that is fighting an existential war. And a country where the people passionately identify with Israel. I’ve seen polls over the last three years, Ukraine is one of the most pro-Israel countries in the world. There were Ukrainian soldiers who put Israeli flags on their uniforms. And this is a historic disgrace.

And yet, what makes it even more painful is that we didn’t have a choice. And we didn’t have a choice because we saw what the alternative was with Zelensky’s meeting with Trump.

Now, along with our disgraceful vote in the UN, Trump has just released another $3 billion in military aid for Israel, circumventing Congress. Now, what would have happened if we would have said no, we can’t vote with you on this. Would he have stopped the $3 billion worth of aid? He might have. Maybe yes, maybe no. But that’s the point. We’re dealing with someone whose stability really depends on being flattered. And so we are now in the permanent business of keeping Trump happy. That’s what it means.

And the real bottom line here, Donniel, is that Trump is turning us into a client state. You know, we always said, Menachem Begin said that, then Netanyahu, to America in particular, don’t treat us like a banana republic. And you know, this is Chiquita banana time here for the state of Israel.

And you know, it’s interesting to think about our arguments with every other president in the past. And I’m certainly including Biden here. We could have public disputes, sometimes even vehement arguments, but the basic foundation of the relationship was intact. Maybe under Obama, there were moments where that was open to question. But generally speaking, you could have public feuds and you could still depend on the solidity of the relationship. Not so with Trump. And the irony, of course, is he really is an extraordinarily pro-Israel president. And yet, dafka with this president, we can’t depend on the basic ground rules of the relationship because it’s all about keeping him happy. So that’s where we are in relation to Zelenskyy in Ukraine.

Donniel: So in light of what you said, Yossi, I want to ask you, so who do you prefer? Here it is. You there was, you had so much angst in the Obama administration and you started to have more and more angst as the war progressed with the Biden administration. And there was a celebration of Trump and his allyship with Israel. But what you’re saying is there isn’t an allyship. So what do you prefer?

Yossi: You know, Donniel, I’m going to take a pass on that question. And one of the reasons is that I’m not sure. I can’t give you a straightforward answer. And in a way, what will determine that answer is how Iran plays out. One of the most worrying consequences of Trump’s Ukraine policy is that Putin has now volunteered to be a mediator between Trump and Iran. Now this is my nightmare. And will Trump be flattered into some disastrous deal with Iran?

You know, it’s hard to believe because Trump has a deep personal animus toward Iran, they did try to assassinate him. So if we’re going to go on the line of how Trump policy is determined by the personal, he has a deep score to settle with Iran. But it’s certainly not inconceivable that Trump could turn around someday soon and make a deal with Iran that would leave Iran on the nuclear threshold.

So if Trump gives us the green light to take out Iran’s nuclear facilities, then I’ll be able to provide one answer for you. Because as you know, for me, so much of the outcome of this war and of this time generally really depends on whether Iran is allowed to cross the nuclear threshold or whether it’s stopped. And so that for me will be the determinant.

Donniel: You know, if we just, I want to stay with your analysis for a few more minutes. It doesn’t seem as if policy is of any significance. you’re gonna, you’re gonna be, we’re living in a world in which you don’t know to what extent there is any political alignment, value alignment. It’s all, you called us him as a client state. You know, I think it feels more like a vassal state.

Yossi: Well, that’s a powerful term.

Donniel: You know, we’re, you know, Israelis in many ways understand it because anytime we want something, send, you know, even citizens, even hostage families, we send people to go visit the administration. We don’t even talk to our government anymore because we’ve given up. It’s not for us to decide. Whatever they decide, we have to follow.

And, you know, it’s interesting. I was very angry at Prime Minister Netanyahu when Trump surprised him with the Gaza Riviera fantasy. And the way he continued to compliment, I even think he complimented Trump to the extent that even Trump was getting nauseous, if there is such a thing. But like there was no end. And I was critical of Netanyahu. I said, like, what’s the matter with you? Now I understand him.

Yossi: He was right. He was right about that.

Donniel: He was right. You know, we speak about the profound limits of Israeli power. We’re seeing under Trump, you know, he speaks about Canada being the 51st state. Canada can’t be the 51st state because Israel is already the 51st state. His control over us is so total because we’re so alone in the world living both on the United States military support and on their veto in the United Nations. And we bask in the support that we’re receiving.

But it comes with total subjugation, complete and total subjugation. And I think Netanyahu, as I always say, we have to know the limits of our power. I think Netanyahu deserves a lot of credit because it’s not in his natural state of being. It’s not in a natural state of being for Zionists to act this way. But he read the map. I’m sure Zelenskyy’s aides are upset that he didn’t call Netanyahu to get instructions because Zelenskyy couldn’t do that. It’s scary, isn’t it, Yossi? It’s very upsetting.

Yossi: It is scary. It is scary. And, you know, I’m thinking about the vision of the founders of Zionism, Herzl and Ben-Gurion and Jabotinsky, and their vision, the classical Zionist vision of Jewish statehood was independence coupled with interdependence, which meant not a defiant isolationist sovereignty on the one hand, and not vassal-hood on the other. And yet those seem to be the only two alternatives that we’ve managed to work out in these last 80 years. And both of those options feel to me a distortion of what the founders of Zionism hoped for, hope to create.

Donniel: It’s a strange time to be in. There’s another dimension. When I was listening to Zelenskyy try to teach Trump the facts of the war, of his war, it reminded me of so many Jews trying to convince people of the facts of our war and how, and we’ve said this over and again in the Hartman Institute, how nobody picks their opinions on the basis of facts. They choose the facts that mirror their opinions. And there was something tragic. Like you even have a debate as to who started the war. Like really? Like that even that, we know that one.

So in this case, the Trump administration agrees with us, but like this, just but for the grace of God for something, you know? The factual debate, and I saw Zelenskyy, and he reminded me of so many Jews who are saying, don’t you know we offered peace and they said no, don’t you remember? It’s like it’s all, they started October 7th.

Yossi: And we were attacked in 1948 and we accepted partition and if you’re against Israel, it doesn’t matter. None of it matters, no.

Donniel: It just doesn’t matter. You saw now here, this is our ally, but it’s the same story all over. And as you’re holding onto your truth in the face of power, truth doesn’t matter. Just doesn’t matter.

Yossi: It’s interesting, Donniel. It’s a great point because thinking about Zelenskyy pleading his case on the basis of recent history, history that we all saw, and yet being completely dismissed. But wait a minute, don’t you understand? This is what happened.

Yossi: And so here we are, we’re in exactly the same place, not with Trump, with much of the left. And it’s maddening.

Donniel: It’s maddening. And so part of me, like I was crying as I’m hearing him, like he didn’t understand. And it goes also to the first point that you were making, that the affinity of Ukraine with Israel, we’re not just the two countries who are fighting an existential war. We’re also two countries fighting a just war. There’s a just war. There is a clear aggressor. And I’m not whitewashing all of Israel’s responsibilities. And I’m not claiming that everything we did in the war was just. But it is a just war. If there ever was a just war, this is as just a war as you’re ever going to find.

And I think part of that affinity was there’s a moral conviction in the righteousness of your cause. And Zelenskyy, that’s part of the way he speaks. Now he benefited from the fact that nobody was questioning the righteousness of his cause. He was fighting the evil Russia and he has been walking around and he needed to because he had no chance against Russia alone. He needed the support of the whole Western world. And the way he articulated his war was the war of the forces of good against the forces of evil. And that he is the tip of the spear defending the West because they’re going to come for you.

And when he said that to Trump and Vance, it blew up. Like, what? You’re trying—he tried to moralize.

Yossi: Are you threatening me, Mr. Zelenskyy?

Donniel: What was really threatening was the fact that he was trying to portray his war in moral categories. Are you on the side of the good? And he tried to teach morality to President Trump and Vice President Vance. And how dare you speak and try to, try to articulate your cause to the American people, I don’t want a moral conversation.

And that leads to a second deep consequence for Israeli society. You know, I asked you, who do you prefer, Biden or Trump? And you said, you’ll have to see. I also know very soon you’re going to be in Vancouver for a little while. You have to be very careful being pro-Trump in Vancouver. It could be dangerous.

But we’re living in a world now where we are shaped by the Trump administration’s moral universe or lack of a moral universe. It’s all a deal. It’s all self-interest. There is no fact. There is no good. Those aren’t categories. It’s make America great again, whatever it might mean. And again, I’m not getting into, it’s not our issue to decide who’s a good president for the United States or not, we might have our opinions, but that’s not our mandate. And I know that aggravates many of our people.

But starting with the transfer plan, which Israelis still embrace, still, we’re living in his world, and he’s holding onto it. And same thing with Zelenskyy in Ukraine. And so basically, whatever we decide, our facts don’t matter. Our moral positions don’t matter. And I didn’t vote for Trump. But he is shaping Israeli, not just political discourse, Israeli moral discourse, the soul of the country. This is not a simple thing, Yossi.

Yossi: No, and I would have been much happier had there been more expressions of unease among Israelis with the UN vote. And I understand the necessity of, let’s call it appeasement. is appeasement. I understand that a country in our position depends entirely on the United States for continuing its ability to defend itself, has no choice. But I’m disappointed at the absence of more unease or shame. There were expressions of shame. Certainly some columnists wrote powerfully about this moment.

But I’m looking at the Israeli public, and this is something we’ve talked about a lot over this last year and a half, is this sense of frozenness—the Israeli public is frozen. And this is one more expression of that. But I do think, Donniel, that every Israeli watching the scene of Zelenskyy being humiliated in the White House for speaking the truth, for speaking words as we’ve said, which all of us have repeated about our own situation, every Israeli, whether consciously or not, had to be asking the same question: could that one day be us?

And if Trump has now eliminated morality from foreign policy, from American foreign policy considerations, that’s one of the principal legs on which our relationship, the special relationship with America stood. If you remove that and it’s all pragmatism, well, then Israelis would counter and say, no, Trump obviously still has a warm spot for Israel. And it seems to be true.

But how far can you depend on that if morality is no longer a factor and perhaps the pragmatic considerations, which right now seem to be working in our favor, shift against us. And then we’re left with Trump’s sentiments. So the fear that I have is that the basis for the relationship has become very thin in the last couple of weeks.

Donniel: Which is very different than what most, you know, I’m traveling now around the United States. There’s a very, you know, in the Jewish community, and most of the Jews who I speak to are liberal Jews and voted Democrat, there’s still, there’s tremendous, tremendous concern about Trump and about what he means for America and what he’s doing to America. There’s always, though, the but, the wondering, but he’s good for Israel. You know, and in the community there is a debate whether that “but” is enough. Like, should you even say it? Is there a place to say “but,” if you feel so negative about his positions in America—is there a “but”?

And many Jews are steeped either publicly or deep, but you know, you feel on the one hand it’s going a little better. There’s a little more support, our security. And it’s natural, you know, in the Maslow hierarchy, the basic security feels a little, little better. But what you’re saying and we’re both saying is that it’s just, it is so thin because it’s not a security of shared values or shared interests. It just, at this moment, what is it that President Trump has decided is what he wants right now?

So for example, if he travels to the Middle East and goes to Saudi Arabia and decides that he now wants to make the Saudi deal and he wants to extend the Abraham Accords. Now, I personally, as someone who, I call myself center-left in Israel, even though that’s not a particular interest, I would be very interested in extending the Saudi deal. But the Saudi deal is gonna come with consequences. Consequences to Israeli positions on settlements in the West Bank, et cetera, and even in the war in Gaza.

And the majority of Israelis aren’t there. I’m more alone on this issue. So it could very well be that, you know, as we say in our tradition, hafukh al hafukh in Hebrew, like upside down, like what you didn’t expect, it’s going to come in the opposite way, that Trump’s interest in a deal might be very, beneficial actually for the political center-left in Israel.

But these positions aren’t Israel. Nobody’s talking about it in Israel and we might find ourselves literally in a Zelenskyy moment where here it is, you have to do this. I don’t care. And frankly, just adjust really quickly, because I don’t care what your fears are, I don’t care what your concerns are, I don’t care what your ideology is. There’s a deal, and this is the deal, and you have to align yourself psychologically. It’s not going to be in a simple place.

And in many ways, Netanyahu’s great advantage is that he seems to be completely as well devoid of ideology. It’s all pragmatics, too. In his case, the pragmatism is maintaining his coalition. It’s a very strange time.

Yossi: So, Donniel, until now we’ve been speaking about the consequences for Israel from the fallout from Trump’s Ukrainian policy. I want to widen the lens and bring in the diaspora.

Donniel: We’re still in the Jewish people though. We’re still in our belly. We’re still navel grazing.

Yossi: We’re still, we are firmly within the Jewish people. No, no. No worries there, no worries. We’re not about to suddenly lose our provincial-ness.

So I just came back from England. I was there for a week. I went to participate in Jewish Book Week, which was just fantastic. And I had lots of meetings with people in the Jewish community. And I had a session that we organized, the Hartman Institute organized, of Jewish community leaders who participated in our summer program. And the questions that they were raising, in particular about Israel’s UN vote, were so agonizing.

So one person said to me, you know, we understand Israel has its interests and we understand why you had to vote that way. But you have to understand how that impacts on Jews in Europe. You cannot be pro-Putin and be part of European society, specifically British society. It will turn the Jewish community into a pariah. And as we know, they’re struggling against precisely that threat now. And they said, we can’t go along with that.

If Israel is aligning itself with the Putin-front, and by extension the far right around the world, where does that leave us? And people very movingly said to me, know, we listen to For Heaven’s Sake and don’t forget us. Don’t forget the Jews in Europe, because we’re also devoted listeners. We’re also part of the Jewish people. And this is putting us in an untenable position because we are so deeply connected to Israel, both publicly and in our private lives. they are. European Jewish communities are much more connected to Israel viscerally than much of American Jewry. And so they feel even more wounded and threatened, when Israel takes a turn in a direction that’s politically and morally untenable for them.

Donniel: Do you remember when Elie Wiesel said to Reagan, was going to visit, where was it?

Yossi: Bitburg.

Donniel: And what were the exact words, you’ll know them better?

Yossi: Mr. President, your place is not there.

Donniel: Not there. They said to you, Israel, your place is not pro-Putin. And they’re right. And they’re right. It’s interesting when you compare it in the United States, being pro-Putin or not is not the issue. There it’s being pro-Trump.

Yossi: That’s right. Exactly, this is how they perceived it. They said, yes, that’s right. That’s right.

Donniel: That’s the shift. You know, one of AIPAC’s strongest ideological aspirations is to make sure that Israel remains a bipartisan concern.

Yossi: And a bipartisan concern based on two pillars, shared interests and shared values.

Donniel: But in the partisanship of the United States, like if you saw the State of the Union speech last night, there are no checks and balances anymore. And we were able, going back to your first point, we were able to argue with the United States president because we had a support in America. There was a basis for it. So if you argue with a Democrat, you have a Republican.

Here, now, there are no checks and balances in Washington, more or less. The Congress, until for the next two years, will pass anything that Trump wants. And where that leads us, and whether every day it’s not creating more alienation of the next generation of Jews from Israel, and as we toe the line, and here, you know, when we’re in Israel, understanding that we have to worry about our survival is even, and you know, we could be embarrassed by it or like we have to combine them, but at the end of the day, even I, I recognize that Netanyahu was right. Like he could not pick this fight, but when you’re 6 to 10,000 miles away, Israel’s existential survival concerns aren’t, you don’t, you don’t think about them as much.

Yossi: Or they’re not the only concerns, you have your own existential concerns.

Donniel: Yeah, but, and even if you don’t, but even that aside, the nature of it is from 6 to 10,000 miles away, you don’t live somebody else’s existential struggles. And it’s much easier to look at Israel and to say, what are you doing? And one of our great agendas is how do we make sure that Israel remains a country that the Jewish people would want to have a relationship with? And how do we survive the Trump administration? This is another dimension of that question, because if we’re going to enter into Trump’s world, this is not a world that the Jewish people want to be a part of.

Last word, Yossi, last thoughts?

Yossi: Yeah, you were talking about the breakdown in Washington. The premise of a special relationship based largely on shared values was that Democrats and Republicans had shared values. They no longer have shared values. And so where does that leave us in this relationship? And by extension, as you’ve just pointed out, where does that leave Israel and the liberal diaspora? What is the future of our shared values?

These are the issues. Zelenskyy didn’t know it, but these were the issues that his meeting with Trump were actually raising.

Donniel: Maybe to do a little tikkun, a little teshuva at the end. I can’t imagine what Ukraine citizens are feeling. You have the support of Europe, but could you trust that? Could you trust European commitment to hard power? You were attacked, you were invaded with unbelievable courage beyond what anybody could imagine and a willingness to sacrifice. You’re defending your country and people of decency around the world said, I’m with you.

And just in one minute, one moment, how everything, reality is overturned, values are denied, and how you find your place in this reality. Maybe let’s end with that.

Yossi: That’s beautiful, Donniel. I really appreciate that.

Donniel: You inspired it, I wouldn’t have thought of it. So I appreciate you and next week it’s going to be back to stage two and in all probability, what’s going to be happening in Gaza and how we move forward with this unfinished business and our hostages. Oy. So much to think about. Yossi, I appreciate you. Thank you. It was nice being with you. It was good being with you.

Yossi: Same, same here, Donniel.

Donniel: Be well, people. This is For Heaven’s Sake, Israel at ceasefire, day 516.