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Thoughtful debate elevates us all. Donniel Hartman, Yossi Klein Halevi, and Elana Stein Hain revive the Jewish art of constructive discussion on topics related to political and social trends in Israel, Israel-Diaspora relations, and the collective consciousness of being Jewish.
The podcast draws its name from the concept of machloket l’shem shemayim, “disagreeing for the sake of heaven” and is part of the Institute’s iEngage Project.
Worrying About America Transcript
Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.
Donniel: Hi, this is Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute, and this is For Heaven’s Sake, Israel at War, Day 291. And the theme that imposed itself upon us this week is America. Not North America, not the diaspora, not world Jewry. America.
And to understand or to really frame today’s conversation is to recognize that the United States in Israel is not a foreign affairs agenda. It’s actually even technically, not even under the purview of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, that America is dealt with directly by the Prime Minister’s office. And America is not an overseas issue for us Israelis.
Yossi: It’s the prime minister who appoints the ambassador to the US rather than the foreign minister.
Donniel: The foreign ministry. And for Israelis, it’s a local need. It’s a local political issue. It doesn’t have to do with our bilateral relationships with the foreign country. This country, despite all of our aspirations, Zionism was going to create a homeland. And it did, what a phenomenal success creating a homeland for the Jewish people, a place where we’re sovereign. But as we all really know, we’re not completely sovereign, not completely. There’s one country in the world which is our lifeline and has really been, not since the beginning, but at least since 1967. While it was the first country to support Israel in 1948,
Yossi: To recognize us.
Donniel: To recognize us. But over time, America’s our lifeline. The American veto. American military aid. In the past, American financial aid.
Yossi: The American veto in the UN.
Donniel: In the UN, and also not just in the UN. It’s just wherever. It’s the ICC and the ICJ. It’s it’s, you know,
Yossi: Right, right.
Donniel: There is this, famous prayer about how in every generation there were rise enemies to destroy the Jewish people. And in our prayers, we pray that God should save us. I know it’s very heretical, and I don’t want to exaggerate,
Yossi: You? Heresy.
Donniel: I don’t want to exaggerate, but there is a sense in Israel that the United States is our, it’s us, there’s a sense that it’s our internal, it’s at the core of who we are at. And this war brought it also to the fore in a more powerful way than ever before. You know, I remember in the Yom Kippur War, but at this war, the role of Biden and the role of the Congress and the Senate, the role of America to be with us at a time when some of our greatest enemies are standing up and endangering us in brand new ways.
And that’s also why we are so sensitive. You know, Britain, Germany, they could say it. But when an American president or something said it’s like you’re,
Yossi: When he held, when Biden withheld some weapons from us, there was such a sense of hurt. How can you! You’re, you stand with us, you’re one of us.
Donniel: And it’s a hurt also that comes from profound need. And I don’t think I don’t know if there’s any country in the world which is independent. And, but we certainly while we’re sovereign and we have our independence, we are deeply connected to an American world agenda. And, neither Russia, you know, there was a little time that we tried, we thought we were going to play at the end of the Obama administration, oh, yeah, we’re going to become friendly with Putin or with China, yeah, good luck, like they have a deep, count on them.
America is so integral to our safety, to our well-being. And we think in those terms so deeply. it’s not just that apartment houses are registered in dollars. It’s not just there’s a lot of countries where the dollar is their first, second, currency. Here it’s a very, very deep issue.
And the turmoil in America is not a turmoil in America. In Israel, it’s a turmoil here. Biden resigning, Harris now being the being the presumed Democratic candidate. Trump returning. Israelis are constantly talking about who’s who’s going to be like, how can we count on?
Yossi: Who’s going to be our president? Our president?
Donniel: Who’s going to be our president? And while there was ambivalence about Biden, there is a sense that there’s, an era is coming to an end. I don’t think there ever is going to be a president who says, I am a Zionist.
Yossi: Certainly not from the Democratic side.
Donniel: Certainly not from the Democratic side. And I don’t think Trump, maybe, I don’t think Trump uses that language.
So let’s talk about America with Israel at war at this time. We’re going to avoid religiously commenting on what’s best for America. Neither you or I are trained in that, nor is that our purpose here in For Heaven’s Sake, who Americans should pick, or not, that’s not, the world doesn’t need that from us.
Yossi: That’s a really important caveat for our American listeners. This is not the address to come to for guidance about who Jews should vote for.
Donniel: And we’re not going to talk about that, even if we might have opinions, which are correct or incorrect. But we want to talk about America from Israel’s perspective from at this moment, the changes. So the shift, how would you start our conversation, let’s even divide up, like, how do Israelis now look at the resignation of Biden and now the presumption of Kamala Harris taking his role?
Yossi: I think we need to preface that by noting that, at this moment, Netanyahu is in Washington preparing to address Congress, which, given all of the political upheavals of the last days, is simply ludicrous. And yet there he is, and members of Congress will dutifully show up and go through this charade, because it’s Israel. And what Israeli prime minister, what prime minister of any other country would presume to show up in the middle of this firestorm?
Donniel: So let’s just stop there. That’s great. I want you to expand on that, because that says everything. That says everything. Everybody says, okay, this is not the right time. You have, Trump was just, survived an assassination. The Democratic Party is, so expand on that.
Yossi: So we have a concept in Hebrew called “ben bayit.” Ben bayit is literally the son of a of a house, of a family, but what it really means is someone who is not technically part of the family, but has been quasi-adopted and adopted, and so the Israeli Prime Minister regards himself as a ben bayit in Washington, that’s his home.
Donniel: At home. Washington is his home.
Yossi: And so if there’s turmoil in Washington, that doesn’t matter. Members of Congress aren’t leaving Washington. You stay, you stay put. And so there’s this frankly bizarre spectacle. And you and I are speaking before the speech, so we don’t know how it’s going to play out. Our audience will already know the breathtaking answer to how did Netanyahu do in Congress. Yes, I’m being sarcastic, but the phenomenon itself is really worth noting. And that Netanyahu didn’t for a moment consider postponing? Put it off, put it off by a few weeks. So that in itself is so revealing of the intimacy of this relationship. But it’s somewhere between being the Prime Minister of a foreign country and being a ben bayit.
Donniel: And, you know, it’s interesting. Every Israeli newspaper, their front story is Kamala Harris is not going to be at the speech. Now, maybe she has actually some things to do right now. You know, maybe it’s not an ideological affront or a rejection of America’s adopted child. We have to avoid too much joking, because it’s like, there’s something funny about it, but there’s something beautiful and sad about it. It’s all at the same time. Our need for America to love us. Is Kamala going to love us like Biden loves us, right?
Yossi: Right. And it’s interesting Donniel, because, you know, even among the most cynical Israelis who speak about, you know, they’ll quote the biblical verse that, “This is a nation that shall dwell alone, “Am levadad yishkon,” as the prophecy of this strange people being abandoned by the world. And yet even many of those Israelis have one exception. And that exception is America. And yes, we’re alone in the rest of the world, but not with America.
Donniel: Because we can’t afford to be alone. If we were truly alone, where would we be? The sanctions against us, it would be, we don’t, we see ourselves as, you know, God’s chosen people and as a superpower and at the center of the universe. But we are unbelievably dependent. We can’t make it alone. That’s part of this truth that we don’t like to talk about.
Yossi: We couldn’t fight a war against Hamas, our weakest enemy, without America resupplying us. That’s that’s the terrible truth.
Donniel: So what are we going to do now that we’re moving from Biden to Kamala Harris? This this man who, at the end of the day, we all knew he was never going to walk away from us. And the day after he stops the shipment of one ton bombs, and supports, 14 or 17 billion allocation of military aid to Israel. So we knew we could trust him.
What is your feeling in Israel towards Kamala?
Yossi: Israelis, including Israelis who were so critical of Biden, our feeling bereft. You know, that’s that of course, is the the irony in the realization that, as you say, no one coming after Biden is going to be Biden for us.
I have to tell you, I had a very Israeli moment the other day. I was watching a clip of the Republican convention and the head of the Republican Jewish Coalition, Matt Brooks, stands up and he says to the convention, thousands of people, he says, if you support Israel, let me hear from you, and Donniel, there was a roar that I have never heard in a convention before. And the Israeli moment was, they love us. It was involuntary. Look at this, look at this embrace. And there were people waving Israeli flags in the audience. And then Matt Brooks very cleverly said, if I were to ask the same question, at the Democratic convention, I would get a very different response. And the Israeli in me said, damn right.
And so I had to pull back from that moment, because there are other considerations here. And what this moment should be telling us is that it’s not always about us, even with America. There are dynamics happening that are so much bigger than us that affect the future of humanity. And now I understand, we have this desperate need at a desperate moment to shore up our most dependable friendship. But there were other questions here.
And one of the questions that I have, which Israelis need to ask themselves is, when we look at this election, it’s not only about our safety, and even to be Jewishly provincialm it’s also about the safety and the future of the American Jewish community. And so there are two questions, it seems to me, on the Jewish agenda, which candidate is going to be better for Israel, will help make us feel safer? Which candidate is going to make American Jews feel safer?
Because in this election, American Jews are going to be voting in large part for their own safety. That’s now on the Jewish communal agenda in a way that it wasn’t in the past.
Donniel: You know, what I sense here from Israel. And, you know, part of what we do is we expand our own feelings and make that all of Israel.
Yossi: It’s a very Israeli thing to do.
Donniel: It’s a very Israel thing to do. And since we have the microphone, we’re going to do that. And I think there is an uncertainty that has entered into the equation that we didn’t have before. We just didn’t have before. With Kamala Harris. You know, there’s the Democratic Party, there is a progressive wing. We know that. We don’t know how extensive it’s going to be. We don’t know how strong it’s going to be. We don’t know where is Kamala. She gave a few speeches and not every speech that she gave did she end it by singing Hatikvah, Israel’s national anthem, like we didn’t feel, you didn’t feel this You felt that she was being an American president or vice president as she should be. You didn’t feel that she was speaking to us as part of her worldview.
And some of that objectivity, you know, I see also the other side or, you know, there is a context, even though she didn’t use that word. But those are things that are in her, like, what do you mean? There’s a context, aren’t we your favorite child? And so I think there is some concern. I’m not talking now who’s better for America. Obviously that’s not what we’re going to do. But with Kamala Harris, there enters a certain uncertainty that at this moment, I don’t feel that Israelis have the energy for more uncertainty right there. There is a war that we haven’t yet won, and there’s wars that are around, really, literally around the corner. And there’s the Houthis and the, it’s just so much and could we, do we feel safe?
I would say that we’re trying to figure her out, we’re just trying to figure her out in a way where everybody’s now dissecting every speech she gave, as if it’s some ancient Talmudic text that needs to be looked for, its fine nuances. What did she say, was that pause? That’s why, is she coming to the speech or not? We’re all going to wait, right? We’re going to wait. She’s going to have a meeting with Netanyahu. What is she going to say? How what is her body language? Is is she relaxed with us? Does she feel an affinity with us? Even with Obama, you know, we used to always joke that Obama is a progressive Jew. You know, he’s a liberal Jew. He thinks about Israel through the eyes of a liberal American Jew. We don’t have a reading on Kamala.
Yossi: Well, look, one thing Israelis definitely don’t want is another progressive Jew in the white House. And what Biden gave us that Obama never did was an embrace. Obama gave us weapons, but he didn’t give us the embrace. And the embrace is not just psychological. It’s not just coddling an Israeli need. It also has political implications for Israel’s position in the world. When there is perceived daylight, as Obama like to put it, between Israel and and the US, that has consequences. And Biden understood that. And we don’t know if Kamala Harris does.
When we look at her speeches, we don’t necessarily need to apply a fine Talmudic microscope. she had one major faux pas when she quasi-embraced the college protesters against Israel. She didn’t embrace their cause, but she embraced their idealism. And this really hurt many American Jews. I don’t think Israelis are even aware that she said that.
Donniel: They are now by the way, because it’s been analyzed. I’ve seen it that speech analyzed at least five times in Israel news.
Yossi: Oh, really? Interesting. Well, we’re getting more savvy in our in our coverage. What worries me as an Israeli about this election is Iran, much more than, are you going to supply all the weapons we need, or are you always going to say the right thing? We are coming to the moment of truth with Iran. Blinken just said it the other day. Iran is two weeks away from making a decision to go nuclear and then implementing it. Now, who is going to be more likely to launch an attack or give Israel the green light to launch an attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities, if we come to that moment? And that’s the question that haunts me.
Donniel: So let’s shift now. And I do so with a profound sense of trepidation. We have a large Jewish audience around the world, but we also have a large, Christian following also in the United States and some of Israel’s best friends. They’re following us and listening to us. And I want to be really careful not to take a stand, on the American election, but let’s talk about Donald Trump, not just from the perspective of Iran, but from an Israeli perspective. What sense do you have, of his level of support here? You know, there are there’s some objective realities. For the first few months of the war, Biden became the favorite. After he held back the one shipment, Trump is more of a favorite, but it’s not a blowout. It’s not, you know, an 80/20. I think it’s like a 50/40, support. But how do you…?
Yossi: Today? 50/40?
Donniel: Like a week or so ago or two weeks ago.
Yossi: I think my reading of the Israeli public is that it is very strongly rooting for Trump. You don’t see that?
Donniel: No. I saw, now it might be different because Kamala is unsure. But the Israelis did remember what Biden did. It wasn’t a there was more support, but it wasn’t a like a blowout, you know, one of these 80/20, type things, like, similar to the way the Jews usually voted in American politics, 70, 75.
Yossi: Which, by the way, might not be that same balance.
Donniel: Yeah, but we’re not getting into that. That’d be out of our way.
Yossi: But in a way, it’s holding you back a little bit. I’ll tell you, Donniel, in a way it is relevant, because what I said earlier is that Israelis, when they think about who’s going to be good for Israel, they should broaden that question: Who’s good for who’s good for the Jews? Who’s good for American Jews as well? Because American Jews really are feeling vulnerable. And each each party has its pluses and its minuses for American Jews. And that should be part of our conversation.
Donniel: Yes, that’s an interesting observation, but it’s not, it isn’t. And it really is not as, and in many ways, it might be hard to ask a country in the midst of war to worry about, even though you and I believe they should, but here, what do you feel Israelis feel about Donald Trump? Are they comfortable? Is there any uncertainty? What are the worries? What are the thoughts?
Yossi: I think that Israelis who are a little more sophisticated, a little more politically discerning, understand the problematics of a second Trump term, understand our concern and about the impact of Trump on America. The problem, from an Israeli perspective, is that he has a really good track record. And what that means is is that he’s already coming to the race. Not that I mean, you know, we talk as if it matters what Israelis think, but let’s pretend that it does.
Donniel: No, of course it matters. It matters to us. It matters to our listeners. What’s happening to Israelis right now? These are things we’re all thinking about.
Yossi: I think Israelis are, by and large, looking to Trump. Now, there is a caveat here, which is the substantial public that is actively opposed to Netanyahu is concerned that a Trump presidency might might prolong the torment of Netanyahu’s term as prime minister. Now, Netanyahu himself, I would guess, is banking on that. All I have to do is hold out till the elections. Trump comes in and then Israelis will understand that I’m the right guy to navigate this relationship.
Donniel: What I’ve been sensing and hearing, you know, and we always make sure to listen to people who verify some of our core instincts, is that there is no doubt that from an Israeli perspective, the thing they feel most comfortable with is Christian support towards Israel, which is most ambivalent to most American Jews, because on so many issues, ideologically there are differences, and so many internal American questions. But Israelis feel safe with Christian, support.
Yossi: And American Jews feel profoundly unsafe.
Donniel: But Israelis do and all the language of the end of days and whether, you know, we’re part of some you know, it was really say, listen, when the Messiah comes, we’ll worry about it, you know, like, it’s there is there’s a safety, there’s a true sense of love and, and an affinity that we feel in, in Christian and in a large part of Christian America. But Donald Trump is supported by that group, so on the one hand, we say no matter what he’s going to do, there is a very there’s a strong tradition. You remember, like there’s there was we share values. We’re not sure the value language that’s shared, with Democrats, even though that’s one part of it, we feel safe that when push comes to shove, someone’s going to have our back. Someone’s going to have our back.
With Donald, though, you never know. The problem with Donald Trump, and this is what I think most Israelis now get a sense too, is that we don’t know how ideological he is. We don’t know what, does he even have an ideology? Is this an ideological president? Is it not? Whether everything is through his own narrative, self-interests? Again, I don’t want to criticize him, but there is also with Donald Trump, a measure of uncertainty.
Yossi: And there’s there’s an added uncertainty, which is the growing isolationism within the Republican Party, which JD Vance represents. Now, Vance has made a clear line between those American allies who, as he puts it, don’t pull their weight and those that do. And he’s passionately supportive of Israel because in his perception, we do pull our weight. We defend ourselves.
He said something very interesting. He said that what he loves about Israel is that Israelis love their country. And we do. So are we the exception? If so, how dependable is that? What happens if we start to falter militarily? What happens if we lose? Are we then no longer an ally that pulls its way?
In other words, if the relationship isn’t based on some shared values, but then the other side of that, is do Democrats perceive shared values with us? And yes, I think that much of the party still does, but a growing part of the party doesn’t.
Donniel: It’s just there, you know, like there’s a certain sense of like, it’s enough already, like, we have to worry about Israeli politics, now we have to worry about American politics?
Yossi: That’s right.
Donniel: It’s like, it’s just, so, you know, maybe Vance is saying to us, I hate being an exception to the rule because you always beware when you’re the exception. Unless he’s saying to us, you know, you’re a ben bayit, you’re my adopted child. Don’t worry, Ukraine is different. Don’t worry. Now, it’s one thing to say I can’t win that war in Ukraine. You hear Trump saying that. You hear Trump saying the war is going to be over.
Yossi: But there’s a harshness. There’s a cruelty in the way they’re ready to cut off Ukraine. And in the affinity that he shows for Putin. That’s scary to us.
Donniel: So that’s scary to us. So let’s end with a, you know, we’re going to take a chance because by the time most of our audience hears this, the speech will already be over. Just reflect. I don’t want you to channel the inner Bibi within you. I’m not going to ask you to do that, even though I know that’s a dominant part of the way you think. But what would be, you know, it’s there’s, if you could or were part of the speechwriters, what would be the most important angle or advice that you would give to Prime Minister Netanyahu, as he’s going to speak to America at this tumultuous time, at this time when America really has a lot of work of its own to do right now. But we’re coming because it’s our home.
Yossi: One word, one word. Gratitude. And that has to be the keynote.
Donniel: I love that, by the way. I would say, and I like yours better than mine, because I think that’s the deepest one, I would say to him, do not use this speech as a moment to speak to Israelis, because so often.
Yossi: Good luck with that.
Donniel: Good luck with gratitude.
You know, there’s so often, you need to talk to America right now. You don’t go to Congress to prove to Israelis, here, I’m the one who handles America. I’m the one who has this, you know, this is not your moment to help you win your election.
Yossi: Oh, come on, we’re talking about Netanyahu. He wouldn’t do that.
Donniel: Exactly. We’re talking about our own aspirations to talk to America and I would speak both about gratitude, and I would also speak about our shared values together. Talk about it across the board. The deepest need of Israel is that Israel be a bipartisan issue in the United States. We are all, because things shift. We need America on our side, and we have great friends, and we have to speak in that way.
There’s something that I want to end with, which a close friend of mine pointed out, Netanyahu, when he was about to get on his new plane, and they asked him, what are you going to talk about? And they said, I’m going to tell America that regardless of who’s president of the United States, we’re going to support you.
Yossi: Did he say that?
Donniel: I promise.
Yossi: He comes through every time. It was so, that’s his notion of bipartisanship, telling Great America that, don’t worry, we will support, we, Israel is on your side. It’s like we used to say, they used to be the famous joke about, you know, there’s 15 million Jews in the world. But we say, you know, the Chinese and us Jews, we’re the majority. So here the mouse that roars is telling America, don’t worry, we have your back. You could always count on us.
Maybe together with gratitude. Gratitude also comes with a little less hubris, a little less hubris. To understand I’m not the gift to the world. And we, America’s one of our greatest gifts. And we love it for as such. And, you know, you spoke about the convention, if an Israeli, in almost any audience, if you would ask an Israeli audience to say, who here loves America, you would hear a roar. And so last word, Yossi?
Yossi: This is a moment of such profound uncertainty for Israel, for America, for the world. And I think that what we all need, especially in navigating this profound relationship between Israel and America, is a deep breath. And let’s not rush to judgment. And it’s especially hard in an election year. But as you say, let’s remember the the bipartisan bedrock of this relationship. And yes, no matter who will be president, we in Israel will support you.
Donniel: In many ways, the political divides that plague America, the profound intolerance, between each side, which is very troubling thing to anybody who watches American politics, the inability of each side to even admit that there’s complexity and value, it’s an all-or-nothing that can’t be the way we do America, because at the end of the day, we need them. And at the end of the day, they’re our greatest friends. And we’re going to have to, in the midst of the next few months, find the inner strength to deal with the complexity that’s there, too.
Yossi: So maybe our last word is thank you, President Biden. And, we’re with you, America.
Donniel: We’re with you, America. Amen. Thank you, Yossi. This is For Heaven’s Sake, Israel still at war, day 291. And at the speech, what will be mentioned are the hostages. But we don’t just want the hostages to be front and center in the speech. We want the hostages to also be front and center in the policy. And maybe by next week.
Yossi: Well put.
Donniel: Maybe by next week. Who knows? It’s coming close, even though every day that passes is a day that they don’t have. Be well, my friends.
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