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Thoughtful debate elevates us all. Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi revive the Jewish art of constructive discussion on topics related to political and social trends in Israel, Israel-Diaspora relations, and the collective consciousness of being Jewish.
The podcast draws its name from the concept of machloket l’shem shemayim, “disagreeing for the sake of heaven” and is part of the Institute’s iEngage Project.
What I Knew, Know, and Don’t Know Transcript
Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.
Donniel: Hi, friends. This is Donniel Hartman. This week, without Yossi Klein Halevi, who couldn’t be with us. This is For Heaven’s Sake, Israel at War, day 381, a year and two weeks.
It’s been over a year, and as we look back and look forward and try to understand, some things are clear, but there’s also so much uncertainty. Every day, a new event comes and changes our understanding, our feelings, our hopes. What seems clear one day is no longer self-evident the next day. I’m taping this a few days after our troops killed Sinwar. And the day he died and the day that I heard of his death, there was joy, but there was also hopefulness that maybe this could come to an end now, soon, and that our hostages now, maybe there’s nobody guiding them.
And the whole system is falling apart and everything is going to work out. And a few days later, I still have that hope, but I’m not so sure. There still seems to be a Hamas leadership. Now in Israel, we’re all getting to know Sinwar’s brother. Is he worse? Is he better? We don’t know.
What is clear is that we’re in the midst of an event that, it’s going to take us time to understand and time to unfold, and we have to constantly evolve. By the time this hits the air, Israel might be bombing in Iran, and then what I know, what, it, everything is going to change.
And so I picked for today’s theme something that is helpful for me, and I’m hoping that’ll be helpful to you. It’s a form of a summary. I’m calling it “What I Knew, Know, and Don’t Know.” I don’t know what the end result of the war will be. And as you already know, my opinions change regularly. I found that in the midst of all of this lack of clarity, it’s helpful for me to take an account because there are things that are changing, but there are also things that aren’t changing and there are new things that we now understand. And I want to hold on to them as long as I understand them, and I want to make space for what I don’t understand.
And somehow within that structure, live, breathe, have hope, and also have some thoughts about where we should be going in the future. Because, you know, it’s a year, year in two weeks, we’ve learned a lot. Where are we?
And so in the midst of, of all this uncertainty, I’d like to share with you a number of points, a list of what I know, what I knew, what I don’t know, knowing fully well, that all of this is going to require constant updating. But at this moment, this is what I know. Let’s start with something that I didn’t know.
And I’ve been speaking about this throughout the year, when the war started on October 7th, and in a different way, with a different, when the beepers were exploded and we embarked in our war with Hezbollah, I didn’t know if victory was possible. Actually, more accurately, I knew that victory was not possible. Gaza, Lebanon, asymmetrical wars were challenges that I believed Israeli military prowess cannot succeed against the nature of Gaza, the nature of, of Hezbollah and Lebanon. I felt that we were starting something that I knew we had to start, but that I didn’t ultimately believe that the status quo could change.
It was a heavy time. And much of this last year was a very heavy year because I felt that we were sort of staying within a status quo and that our army was not going to be able to change that status quo.
Right now, today, day 381, what I know now is that I was wrong. We won. Israel’s military and intelligence arose from October 7th and achieved remarkable victories, tactical and strategic, many of them of historic proportions. I’m humbled by their bravery, by their skill. And I know the price that all of us have paid and, and the price, the human price and the psychological price that so many of our kids and family have paid. But right now, I know, or I believe we’ve won the war.
And as I’ve said in the past, winning the war means that we’ve set the grounds for starting it. an alternate rule in Gaza. We’ve set the grounds for truly removing Hezbollah from the northern border and implementing in a more sophisticated manner, UN resolution 1701 with the caveat that if it’s broken, we don’t have to count on UN peacekeeping forces who were completely humbled and humiliated by Hezbollah, but that we will have the right to intervene.
You could see it. You could taste it. It’s important that we stop for a moment and take all of the skepticism of the last year and recognize that our army has, has served its purpose to defend Israel, it’s done its job.
And as I said last week, now we have to take this victory and move to the political realm and negotiate the next stage. The army can’t take us to the next stage, but the army broke the status quo. That status quo, which offered us no future, has now been changed. And so while I didn’t know, or I knew that we couldn’t win today, 381 days later, I know that we have. And now we must begin the next stage.
Now, I don’t know if the political negotiations will be successful. Will Hezbollah choose to compromise or is it in their interest and Iran’s interest to have an ongoing war of attrition? I don’t know how much you’re following, but the number and level of mutual bombings is going up, they’re bombing more and now we’re bombing more so that we could show that who’s more powerful so that as we enter the political process we’ll do so with our interests and our ability to negotiate and we’ll have the upper hand. So I don’t know if it’s going to succeed, but what I do know is that our army gave us a chance. And with all the complexity, it’s important just to stop there and to say, yeah, that we know.
The second thing that I knew on October 7th, and that I knew when Israel started to move against Hezbollah, is that in both cases, these were just wars. That regardless of the noise and the attacks against Israel by our enemies, both here in the Middle East and around the world, I knew these were just wars.
Today, I still know that Gaza was a just war, and that attacking Hezbollah was a just war. I have no doubt in my mind and my moral conscience is clear about the right of Israel and the right of the Jewish people to defend ourselves, to defend our citizens, and to allow us to live in our home safely. That was simple. That’s something I knew, and that’s something I know.
What I no longer know is how much longer. We can claim that the justice of the war on October 7th, November 7th, December 7th, January, February, March, April, May, June. I don’t know at what point the justice of this war, the justness of this war will come to an end. The preponderance of civilian casualties, the horrific humanitarian crisis, requires of us to ask seriously if every single day our actions are proportional in the sense that are they giving us a gain? Are they serving our purpose, our aim, our, our moral rights, and whether it’s proportionate to the suffering that it is also causing?
I feel we’re in the midst of a war. It’s like a sand clock. It’s not that the time is running out for us to be able to fight this war from an international political position, but from a moral position. October 7th is not going to allow us to keep on fighting forever, regardless of the consequences. And we have to engage and embrace ceasefires and political solutions, not merely to save hostages, but also to save innocent lives that are being killed daily. We can’t be callous to that and still claim that this is a just war.
I don’t know anymore when the moment is upon us, but I know that we’re getting close and maybe we’ve even passed it. Maybe not yet in Lebanon. Maybe after Sinwar, more so in Gaza, I know that this is a question that we have to start talking about.
The third thing I knew is from the beginning, I knew that civilian casualties in Gaza was going to be an issue because I knew that it would be impossible for us to defend ourselves without inflicting massive civilian casualties who were basically put in a place of serving as a human shield, that the nature of the war in Gaza was fighting an enemy embedded in the midst of a civilian population, which would be horrific, which would be horrific. I knew there were going to be civilian casualties.
Despite that, I knew that the war was just, and despite that, I knew that we could fight the war justly. But I didn’t know was the extent to which civilian casualties was not only going to become a profound moral issue, but what’s going to become a strategic issue, both for Hamas and for Israel’s ability to fight the war. And that our strategic power is not merely measured in the bravery and strength of our army, in the amount of weapons and bombs that America would provide us and others, but that our standing in the international community was also a strategic issue that Israel has to take into account. I knew that this was an issue.
The extent to which this would undermine our bilateral ties, undermine our position in the world, that this would be in many ways the issue through which the world will look at the war — I didn’t know, but I know now. I didn’t know how deep Israeli reticence would be from talking about this issue and relating to it.
I knew that October 7th created a deep trauma, but I didn’t fully understand how deep it was and how difficult it is for Israelis to talk about Israeli Jews, to talk about civilian casualties on the other side, to care morally. And a year and two weeks later, it’s still unbelievably difficult. And I’m lecturing to hundreds of groups and I’m testing and I’m talking. It’s very, very difficult. I didn’t, I didn’t know and realize how long it would take for Israeli society to rebound. I didn’t know.
Not just the difficulty of rebounding from October 7th, I didn’t know the extent that that small segment of Israeli society, let’s call them the fascist forces who are part of our government, I thought they would be there, but they would be marginalized. What I didn’t know is how deep their influence would be on the government and on the decisions we make and on the way we talk about the war. Now I know.
And as a result, I know that Zionism and the lovers of Israel have to start talking about this issue. Civilian casualties cannot be the moral issue of the critics of Zionism and of our enemies. It has to be an internal discourse within the Zionist community. We have to talk about it. We have to struggle about it. We have to talk about when a just war ceases being a just war.
I now know that this issue is not only critical for our relationship with our friends around the world, with our friends in governments in North America and, and in Europe in particular, this is also going to be a critical issue for the future relationship between Israel and world Jewry. If in the past, one of the great challenges was an Israeli society divided between the Orthodox, traditional, and secular, and North American Jewry is Orthodox, conserved, reformed, reconstructed, renewal, post denominational, secular. The denominational divides were so different, we were different types of Jews.
This divide on the moral issue of civilian casualties and our moral responsibilities for humanitarian aid is, I believe, going to be one of the more significant inheritances of this war. And it’s one that we’re going to have to find a way to bridge, and it’s not going to be simple.
I didn’t know on October 7th, and I didn’t know really till January, the extent to which politics would shape this war. See, I grew up in an Israel in which wartime, when our children and family are in danger, there’s a holiness to it. It’s the time in which all your political calculations are supposed to be put aside, when your political agendas, your political needs. Now, everybody understands that that’s secondary. It’s a very deep part of my love for Israel, and at these moments, there’s, in moments of crisis, they’re holy times. They really are holy times. I didn’t know that politics would penetrate the war and undermine this holy time.
Now I know how dominant political calculations were almost from the first day. When Israel decided not to attack both Northern Gaza and Philadelphi Corridor, because there were political forces who didn’t want us to control the Philadelphi Corridor so that we could hopefully exile Gazans into Sinai. And without going through a list, and you know it, at every stage, humanitarian aid, accepting a ceasefire, rejecting a ceasefire, all those things which were in our power, and not everything was in our power, many things were dictated by others, but how the political needs of this coalition, how maintaining the coalition and talking in such a way that would ensure political support, in my life, this is the most political of wars, far more even than the first war in Lebanon, which ultimately led to huge political divides, the whole country understood that that was the war we shouldn’t have fought.
I didn’t know, none of us knew, the strength of the new young generation of Israelis. I didn’t know the strength of our society at large. We, you know, we’ve become quite comfortable. Before October 7th, Israel was a great place to live in. Whenever I traveled to Europe, I felt other than their highways, transportation systems, like, compared to Israel, they were third world countries. And, you know, with comfort comes weakness. I didn’t know how strong we were.
October 7th activated an inner strength from everybody in our country. From the troops who are being called back again and again and again, to the family members who are at home, to the children, to the people who stood up and basically took care of each other. I and nobody knew how strong we were. You know, we used to talk about, oh, the Tel Aviv Jews, the weak ones, those who are, who only care about comfort. Our whole society stood up and said, hineni, said, here I am. I know what an honor it is to be in the midst of this people.
And also, as we look back, and as I spoke about, this is beginning to crack. We know that. But it’s not a weakness in many ways. It’s a sign of strength because we’re not here to just die for our country. We’re here to live for our country. And a desire to get back to life is one of the greatest strengths of this country. October 7th did not take away from us our desire to live. October 7th activated our willingness to fight for our life, and now people want to get back to life.
I knew already from the beginning, despite what everybody was declaring about how everybody was united, both in Israel and in North America, that in the long run October 7th wasn’t going to unite us in a profound way. It was going to have a bump, it was going to have a positive uptick, it was going to put us in a place to, for a few moments, to transcend certain political and ideological issues, but at the end, crisis never unites us, death never unites you. It actually activates greater divisive forces, as we’d say the other ones, beliefs and politics were responsible for October 7th.
When the tragedy of October 7th is politicized, it is a tool, it’s a battering ram with which to attack the other and not an embrace with which to transcend our divides. I knew it wasn’t going to unite us. Not only do I know that, now I am certain of it, as we see for months now in Israeli society, how deep the divisions are, how deep the political divides are. And while we’re willing to transcend that in the battlefield, the minute you come home, those divides define our society.
I just came right before this podcast from speaking at hostage family tent. Even the hostages, it’s not a consensus issue here in Israel. It’s much more of a consensus issue outside of Israel. Those same deep ideological schisms. It’s not even enabling us to embrace the hostage families, to embrace the, the, the primacy of our moral responsibility to bring the hostages home. It’s not a right wing left wing. It’s much deeper than that.
There’s a deep divide as to the core ideology and priorities of Zionism and Judaism, how we understand power and how we accept compromise. What’s the place of God in our society, not just in state and religion, but in our battlefield, the sanctity of land, the divides are so deep and paradoxically, what, what should have been the most unifying issue is now the crux of the most dividing one, divisive one, hostages.
Crisis doesn’t unite us. If you want to be united, it requires a deep, deep educational and cultural struggle to create ideological consensus, not with everybody, but to create a new majority.
You know, a part of that majority we saw last year emerging in the judicial crisis. Because the judicial crisis moved beyond just a left right wing political divide, you know, Levin and, and Rotman, they’re for and were against, and there was a larger vision of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state, which started to emerge in our country, which created a 75 seat majority around a vision of Israel.
Politics is not going to unite us. Crisis is not going to unite us. We have to fight for a Jewish democratic country. We have to fight for a country in which power is not an end, that just wars have to be fought justly, that the land of Israel may be holy, but it’s secondary to, to human life and to our moral responsibilities.
This is not going to change with this government falling. It’s going to continue and these divides are going to continue until we don’t confront the educational challenges that lie before us. I knew that October 7th did not unite us. I now know how deep that divide is, and how much work still lies ahead of us.
I knew, already at the beginning of the war, despite what many people were saying, I knew that not all anti-Zionist sentiments were antisemitic. I knew and know that not everybody who criticizes what Israel does is an antisemite. I knew that not all criticism is anti-Zionist, and I know that not all anti-Zionism is beyond the pale.
There are people who don’t feel connected to Israel and those who are enemies of Israel. They’re not the same. And I knew that there was a need to allow critique of Israel and questions, including critique and questions regarding the war, and that ultimately these critiques and questions were going to be critical for the well being of Israel and the well being of Zionism.
What I didn’t know, I don’t think any of us knew, and it’s profoundly unsettling, especially for Jews around the world, but also for us in Israel who watch it from afar, is we didn’t know how mainstream antisemitic anti-Zionism would become. How legitimate it would be to call for the death of Zionists and how that would be tolerated as just another legitimate opinion. How Israel, to quote Yossi, would become the paradigm of evil, the paradigm of colonialism and genocide.
We knew there were those who were going to manipulate this. What we didn’t know is how deep and mainstream that would become. We have to be very careful to distinguish between those who question, those who are distanced from Israel. Those for whom Israel is not a part of their lives, and those who vilify Zionism, but even more deeply, legitimize the calling of the killing of anybody who is associated with Israel and the Zionist enterprise. Let’s call them those who are in the family of those who, who celebrate October 7th as a good day, and who on October 8th were already claiming that Israel was guilty, for even October 7.
That this would even be part of our world is shocking to us. We know this now. What are the implications of this on our children? What are the implications of this on the societies in which we live and our, and our ability to be comfortable there? How do we combat this form of antisemitism while not overusing the category of antisemitism for all those who critique is going to be one of the core questions that we’re going to have to answer as a result of what we now know.
And finally, on October 7th, I didn’t know if there was any hope. More truthfully, I knew there was no hope. I knew that the status quo would remain, that the status quo in Gaza would be the same, that we would fight, and that a lot of soldiers would die, and a lot of Gazans would die, and at the end, we were going to be in the same place.
Friends, I now have a tremendous amount of hope. Tremendous amount of hope. As I said beforehand, our army gave us a victory, it gave us a possibility. I am more hopeful today than I’ve been in years. Truthfully, before October 7th, I was also very hopeful that a new coalition, a new Israel was emerging. And then we went to war and that Israel of democracy of Jewish democracy of liberal Zionism and liberal Judaism was set aside. But I was unbelievably hopeful on October 6th that the forces had coalesced and that we were moving in a new direction. I’m hopeful again because we’re on the verge of possibly changing the status quo. Status quo, not just in Gaza and in Lebanon. But the status quo in the Middle East, we’re on the verge of a new direction.
Now, I don’t know if we’re going to embrace it. I don’t know if Israeli society is going to push for it. I don’t know if this government is going to embrace it. I don’t know who’s going to be better for this in the American elections. And that’s not, I don’t know if there’s going to, who’s going to push for this and how this will be sustained.
But, you know, I’m a people of Dayenu. It’s enough. Right now, on day 381, and I don’t know what 382 will bring, I know that there’s dangers of us entering into a war of attrition, which will just harm us. And I know that as we continue to fight, the civilian casualties are going to be a more significant moral stain. I know that while we’re weakening some enemies, we’re strengthening others. When all is said and done, though, right now, I know that there is hope. It’s there.
Of course, it’s going to be dependent on us to grasp it, to own it. But today on day 381, just the mere fact that there is hope gives me strength.
On October 7th, there was no hope. On day 381, there is. That has to be enough.
Friends, this is For Heaven’s Sake. Israel at War Day 381 and may Day 382 bring us even greater hope.
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