About

Thoughtful debate elevates us all. Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi revive the Jewish art of constructive discussion on topics related to political and social trends in Israel, Israel-Diaspora relations, and the collective consciousness of being Jewish. 

The podcast draws its name from the concept of machloket l’shem shemayim, “disagreeing for the sake of heaven” and is part of the Institute’s iEngage Project.

Upheaval Transcript

Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.

Donniel: Hi friends, this is Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi. And this is For Heaven’s Sake, Israel at War, day 397. Today is not just Israel at war. Today is a day of profound upheaval.

Yossi: America.

Donniel: America. Or for many of you, for many of us listening today. And we’re gonna talk about it, upheaval in the United States, upheaval in Israel. But before we begin to analyze the subject like this, I just wanna talk directly to many of our listeners in the United States. This last year, this last 397 days has been a very difficult time for many, for most of us Israelis, for all of us Israelis, and for Jews around the world.

And one of the things that was most meaningful to me and for me and for all of Israelis is the sense that we weren’t alone, that you saw us, you thought about us, unconditionally. You didn’t wake up in the morning and ask what’s good for you. You woke up in the morning and asked what’s good for us, on so many levels, whether it was giving supplies to our soldiers and supporting Israel and thinking about us and talking about us and praying for us and writing us. I felt that my heart was expanded because it joined with so many hearts of Jews around the world. You were very important to us.

I also experienced, and as we talked about this together, there’s a very big difference between those who lived in Israel or who live in Israel, those who live in Israel and have children in the army, those who live in Israel who have cousins or friends, that’s a second degree. Those who don’t live in Israel, each place creates degrees of separation. And I live in Israel. I work a lot in the United States and Canada, but I live in Israel, and I know that I don’t fully understand everything that you’re experiencing right now. I can’t.

It’s not that I’m not familiar and it’s not that I don’t have a personal opinion as to who I preferred would win or not win. But Yossi and I decided that it wasn’t our mandate to express our opinions and to engage. But I know that for two-thirds of you, today is a day of profound sadness, of profound worry and fear. And I just wanted to start today as before we talk about our opinions, and we’ll have opinions, but we’re with you. A third of the Jewish community is quite happy today. But two-thirds are in profound pain, and I think it’s the job of Israelis to hear your pain, to hear your fears, to hear your concerns, and both to be with you and at some point also to ask what we can do for you.

And so, I just wanted to say that. We’re with you. Those of you who are overjoyed don’t need me to be with you right now. We could talk about it, but you’re also there. You’re also part of our listeners in our community. But there’s profound upheaval and we have to talk about it. There’s so much uncertainty. What does this mean for the Jewish community in North America, around the world? And at the same time, what’s happening in Israel? Because these last 24 hours were some of the most difficult hours also in Israel as our Prime Minister fired our Defense Minister in the midst of a war on the eve of a significant attack from Iran, an attack that will require Israel to respond.

Our world is unsettled. And part of the way we have to start today’s podcast is to recognize that we’re all broken. We’re all, we don’t know. There’s so much uncertainty and pain and fear. And I think it requires of all of us to do a lot of listening. We’re gonna talk, we’re gonna present our opinions, but we’re gonna do so, I hope, with some humility. Because when you talk about something from 6 to 10,000 miles away, it’s not the same. So I’m with you. I hear you. And, we continue.

So now with that, I want to turn to my dear friend, Yossi. I know you and I, differ on a lot of issues. At this moment, as this morning we awoke with a new president-elect in the United States, what are the thoughts that you, what are the first thoughts? We’re not, our job is not to be political commentators of the American scene, but as a Jew, as an Israeli, what are your thoughts? What’s going through your mind?

Yossi: So, Donniel, my first thought is that you just spoke very beautifully. And, you know, I said to you not long ago in private that one of the things you do so well is you offer pastoral care to the Jewish people when we’re feeling emotionally vulnerable. And that was just on full display now. And so I want to say that not only to you privately, but also publicly.

Donniel: Thank you. Thank you, Yossi.

Yossi: And in terms of the election, I have friends, Jewish friends in America, as I’m sure you do, who voted either way. And all the people I know voted passionately, furiously, but none of the people that I know voted passionately for their candidate of choice. It was all this passionate vote for, against, against the other candidate. And I want to unpack that specifically from a Jewish perspective, because it seems to me that what Jews in this election were really voting about was which mob do they fear more, the January 6th mob that has attached itself to the Republican Party or the anti-Zionist, progressive mob that is nominally attached to, let’s say, the Democratic camp.

Now, it’s true that the January 6th mob has penetrated the Republican Party far more deeply and totally than the anti-Zionist mob has penetrated the Democratic Party. But let’s look at the perceptions here for a moment. And first of all, I understand both fears. I understand the fears of both of these mobs. The January 6th threatens the liberal order in which American Jewry became the most successful diaspora in Jewish history. That’s the, on some level, that’s the deepest Jewish fear. That, you know, there’s been all this legitimate conversation about the end of the golden era of American Jewry. And so the fear among liberal Jews in America is that this is the definitive moment that will end the golden era.

On the other side, there’s the equally compelling fear of the anti-Zionist mob, which is squeezing Jews out of progressive spaces and has restored a kind of conditionality to American Jewish acceptance. We, progressive America, will accept the Jews provided that you renounce this objectionable part of your Jewish identity. And so this, to my mind, this was the most devastating election in American Jewish history to have to choose between these two mobs.

Now, I mentioned a moment ago that the anti-Zionist mob has not taken over the Democratic Party, in the way that the January 6th mob has taken over the Republican Party. But both Harris and Walz made a fundamental mistake in seemingly validating the anti-Zionist demonstrators, repeatedly saying, you have a point, we understand you, instead of unequivocally distancing themselves from that mob. And so the perception among those Jews who voted not for Trump, but against Harris, was that they couldn’t trust her to contain the anti-Zionist mob. And by extension, they couldn’t trust her to be firm against Hamas and Hezbollah and, most of all, Iran.

Donniel: So we tried to find what would be least destructive. That was the choice. Sounds to me like an Israeli election. Again, our politics aren’t of significance. You know, I’m an American citizen and I pay taxes in the United States, but I choose not to vote in the United States. I think I’ve discussed this in the past.

Yossi: Yeah, neither do I.

Donniel: I’ve chosen not to, and I know some people think, some people think I’m very wrong and I’m being self-righteous. Somehow I don’t feel that I have the same level of a say. But I would just say that I do understand. My own politics, I lean heavily with all the fears that you mentioned. I lean heavily, would have led heavily in preference of Harris with a deep fear of President-elect Trump. And I would just say that I understand that in this election, American Jews would vote first and foremost for what would be most impactful on their America.

I wake up in the morning and think about Israel. And I choose not to vote about America because I know that I wake up first and foremost about Israel. And I understand that in this election, it was very legitimate for American Jews to say, the issue of Israel is critical to me. We know that. The vast majority of Jews care. But this is election that I have to vote for. What is my future in America? And so that was the divide. I think it was roughly a two-thirds/one-third divide, more or less.

Yossi: Yes, except, but, the people who voted against Harris, and I’m emphasizing the Jews who voted not for Trump but against Harris, were also in their minds voting for their American Jewish interests. They were voting against the anti-Zionist mob.

Donniel: See, that’s interesting. There was an interesting, I don’t, there was a very, no, there was, that’s true. There’s a very interesting survey put out by our colleague institution and our friends at JPPI here in Israel. And Shmuel Rosner, serious man, did this survey, which found that the majority of Jews who ended up voting for Harris or preferred Harris were doing so out of concern for Jewish life in America and what it would do to America. And the majority of Jews who preferred Trump were thinking principally about who would be better for Israel.

Yossi: I would argue that in this election, the line has blurred between American Jewish interests and Israel’s interests because of the rise of anti-Zionism.

Donniel: Interesting. I realize that. I realize that. But there still is a sense of a deep concern. And I think that’s why this sense of upheaval of, what’s America going to feel like?

You know, there’s a secondary question about what will happen to Israel. And I’d like to turn to that. Like, what’s your feelings about what’s going to happen? Even though I’m almost embarrassed by it a little bit because I feel it’s really not about me today. I really understand it.

You know, our colleague and friend, you know, President of the Hartman Institute, together with myself, Yehuda, wrote this beautiful article in the Hebrew newspaper, Israel Today, trying to explain what was at stake here for the American Jewish experience. And so I hear it so strongly. But I want to apologize, but still do it if that’s okay. So what does this mean for Israel, even though I know?

That’s not the critical question right now, but at least I would say for most American Jews it still is a question. It might not be the most critical question, but it is a question. What do you think this means? Israelis, you know, as I just one last preface, Israelis were the mirror opposite of North American Jews. Israeli Jews, two-thirds, had a preference for Donald Trump. And they were all thinking just about the Israeli sense. They were worried about issues of human rights and democracy and everything that’s associated with the debate between the Democratic and Republican parties.

But let’s look at our—is it okay if we do a little navel gazing for a moment? I hope it’s not going to be insulting to people. But what does this mean in your mind for Israel?

Yossi: How can we not, Donniel?

Donniel: It’s our navel.

Yossi: But I have to tell you that my first anxiety was about Ukraine and the fear of Trump betraying Ukraine, which also indirectly impacts on Israel. Because if you strengthen Russia, you’re strengthening the Russian, Chinese, Iranian, North Korean axis.

And this is a kind of a world war that’s shaping up. And in some ways, Trump is on the right side of that war. In other ways, he’s not. And I think that gets to the heart of my concern about Trump’s impact on Israel, is that he’s a wild card in every way. And not only is his rhetoric erratic, but his policies can also be erratic.

One can see on the one hand Trump telling Israel, do what you have to do with Iran, just do it quickly. And here are the weapons, go take out, go deal with the nuclear facilities. But one can just as easily see Trump announce his deal of the century in which he betrays Israel and America’s Arab allies and works out a disastrous deal with Iran.

So there are so many variables here. I suppose my greatest immediate concern is the strengthening of the Israeli far right. The far right has a very specific agenda for the coming months. They want to rebuild a settlement in Gaza as the first step to reconstituting the settlement bloc in Gaza, which for me would be an act of madness, would validate everything that our critics have been saying, which is that this is not Israel, it’s not fighting a war of survival, but a war of conquest.

They have plans to formally annex the West Bank. Now, it’s interesting, the last time around, it was Trump who forced Netanyahu to step back from annexing the Jordan Valley and to opt instead for the Abraham Accords. Trump made that an ultimatum to Netanyahu. You have to choose annexation or peace with Arab countries.

Now, that may play out for even greater stakes if Trump can work out a deal with the Saudis. So it’s not at all clear that Trump is going to give the far right everything that the far right believes he’s going to give them. If you listen to the celebrations in far right circles today, you know, it really is as if the Messiah has come or at least the forerunner to the Messiah. But that’s not clear. So I’d say that in terms of Trump’s impact on Israel, I’m not feeling anxiety as much as acute uncertainty. And it could go in so many ways, so many ways.

Donniel: You know, like predicting what a President Trump’s second administration will be like is profoundly difficult at this time and we know that.

It’s interesting, I think one of the reasons why Israelis and the far right have an affinity to Donald Trump is that they have a profound disdain from external moral criticism. They can’t stand when somebody comes to Israel and says, you’re not morally righteous. And one of the things that we could trust with the Trump administration is there isn’t going to be moral condemnation as a centerpiece or moral principles as a centerpiece of foreign policy. That’s a Democratic,

Yossi: Or, not only not a centerpiece, it won’t be part of the conversation at all.

Donniel: It’s not. In other words, it’s, there’s a conversation of interests, of economic interests, power interests, and whatever other interests, are making, whatever you believe will make America great again, but it’s not about a concern for the downtrodden and for righteousness. You won’t hear the moral outrage. What about humanitarian aid? So there is, Israelis, they don’t want, they fear that criticism and it has become so alien to so much of Israeli society that I think that’s where they were frightened from the Democratic,

Yossi: Good point. Yeah.

Donniel: And they felt more comfortable with Donald Trump. But here, I don’t wanna make a prediction, but I just wanna put something out there on the basis of everything that he said and done. Again, this is not to claim that I’m for Trump. It doesn’t matter anymore, by the way, whether we’re for or against. That’s what we have right now.

Yossi: That’s the good news.

Donniel: That’s like, it doesn’t matter what you go for or against. But part of what we Jews do is that what’s there and what are the possibilities inherent with what’s there, whether you wanted it or not. And knowing that on the American front inside there’s going to be tremendous, tremendous, I believe, danger and uncertainty.

In Israel, Donald Trump has consistently said he wants to stop the killing and to begin the peace. And even in his remarks, know, accepting his victory a little before the victory, he said, I’m going to bring an end to the wars. No more, I’m gonna bring an end to the wars. Now, he doesn’t want the killing, he doesn’t want Americans in a war, he doesn’t want to continue to spend, whether it’s in Ukraine or in Israel, all the billions and billions that he has to spend.

And one of the things that we have to remember is that Israeli politicians have greater ease fighting back against Democratic presidents and administrations because there’s a Republican Congress behind them. Donald Trump has the ability to force Israel into positions, to force Israel right into positions that it would never ever accept, ever.

And we have to remember that Donald Trump forced Netanyahu to accept the idea of a Palestinian state. Netanyahu accepted it. The Trump peace plan, which involved a Palestinian state in area A and B with a capital in Jerusalem, leaving area C, where Jewish settlements are untouched, for now, in the first stage, and Netanyahu had to accept it. If you remember, the right-wing,

Yossi: The settlement movement vehemently opposed it. That’s right.

Donniel: They opposed it, but they were silent. They couldn’t say anything because once Donald Trump gave us the capital and the embassy in Jerusalem, he was so supportive of us in the United Nations, and he wasn’t the moral critic of Israel. And we couldn’t say a word. So, and Netanyahu had to accept it. It wasn’t implemented because Abu Mazen said, I’m not taking you seriously. But in the aftermath of the Gaza war, Abu Mazen is now an irrelevant player.

Just again, prophecy is not something you want to be engaged in too often. But I see a very different future for the Gaza war under a President Trump in which Israel is going to be forced into, as we now know, he said the war is going to come to an end. There is not going to be any settlements in Gaza. He wants the war over, the killing over. He wants an expanded Abraham Accord with the Saudis. He’s going to push for it. The Saudis are going to be very comfortable speaking with him and there’s going to be movement and the Saudis are only going to enter the deal with some horizon for the Palestinians. All those who are so happy with the idea of a Donald Trump administration because there isn’t this moral, self-righteous criticism are going to be dealing with a man who wants to bring conflict. He wants to bring on the peace. And so it’ll be interesting to see.

Yossi: Interesting, interesting. No, no, I find that possibility tantalizing. There’s another question here, which is the impact on Netanyahu’s standing with the Israeli public as a result of Trump’s victory. In our last podcast, we dealt with Netanyahu’s moment, which came and went almost as soon as we finished our recording. And we really should come to that in a moment. But I just want to stay just for one moment longer on the question of Trump’s impact here, because that, one could see again, that playing out in one of two ways. Trump can either bolster Netanyahu’s standing in the Israeli public as Netanyahu is the guy who can work most successfully with Trump. They speak, for better or for worse, a common language.

On the other hand, there was the argument that I read the other day that Netanyahu was gearing up to being the bulwark against American pressure. And only Netanyahu can be trusted to resist the, you know.

Donniel: To resist. That was, you’re right. I saw that a lot. Yeah, I saw that a lot.

Yossi: And so I have a feeling, Donniel, that Netanyahu is asking himself a very simple question this morning, which is, why aren’t I as happy as I think I should be feeling?

Donniel: No, the next two years are going to be interesting, you know, because in another environment, I have a great affinity to Bennett, who’s the only competitor right now to a Netanyahu. You know, personally, I’m more to the left of Bennett.

Yossi: But you could certainly live with a Prime Minister Bennett.

Donniel: But the one phrase that Bennett cannot articulate, cannot bring to his lips or even think about is the term Palestinian state. And so he’s profoundly limited. Netanyahu in power over the next two years with the president who might push this, those are terms that Netanyahu is willing to embrace. Stay tuned. It’ll be interesting.

But let’s, you know, and, so moving for a moment away from the profound upheaval and uncertainty in America and, and a big hug to everybody and we’re with you and we’re watching and day by day, we’ll be there together.

There’s also a profound upheaval here in Israel that we just have to talk about. The idea of firing a minister of defense while our kids are dying is just is so destabilizing. And for what? The inner Israeli politics is that, is that Gallant was fired because he would not allow a capitulating deal with the Ultra-Orthodox, which would exempt two significant, a percentage of them from being drafted.

Yossi: Which is just about everybody.

Donniel: Right. Gallant wanted the Charedim to be, Ultra-Orthodox to be drafted. And as Minister of Defense, he had ministerial control over that. And he wasn’t going to enable any movement. And Netanyahu fires him in the middle of a war in order to preserve his coalition.

This level of political gamery or whatever word you want to call it while our children are,

Yossi: Corruption, evil. How’s evil? How does that work for you, Donniel? Evil.

Donniel: No, that’s too strong a word for me. That might be your term.

Yossi: Well, it is. It certainly is.

Donniel: I hear you. So this word, people are calling, like, there’s a level of uncertainty amongst non-Netanyahu supporters here, which is destabilizing on a level that I haven’t seen in a very long time.

Let’s talk about the end of the Netanyahu moment, as you called it and the internal upheaval in Israel. What do you see, Yossi?

Yossi: So we have a terrific expression in Hebrew, which is, just when you think you’ve hit rock bottom, there’s a knock from below.

Donniel: Thatt’s Jewish history. That’s Jewish history, you know? That’s a Jewish, that sounds to me like an Auschwitz joke, by the way.

Yossi: This really, for me, this sums up our experience of the last few years. As nightmarish as the last two years have been, this, for me, is rock bottom. And it’s rock bottom for the reasons you said, but even more so. Not only did Netanyahu fire a defense minister during war, he fired the best defense minister we’ve had in years.

And he replaced him with one of the least impressive politicians that Israel has today, Yisrael Katz, who has literally failed at every position he’s ever been given. He was a disastrous finance minister. He, as foreign minister, on the first day of the job, he created an international crisis with Poland. He accused all Poles of being anti-Semitic. You’re dealing with a man who is extraordinary in his mediocrity. Even on the Israeli political map, Yisrael Katz stands out as a nobody. And this is the guy who you’re bringing in and he has no military experience to speak of, doesn’t understand strategy.

The second reason is, second betrayal is what you mentioned, which is to undermine our military leadership in exchange for

Donniel: Military exemptions.

Yossi: In exchange for wholesale military exemptions of the ultra-Orthodox. And here again, it’s even worse than that because not only is the plan to virtually the entire ultra-Orthodox community, but to subsidize the exemption, to subsidize their separatism at a time when the economy is going through crisis.

And finally, the timing of the firing of Gallant. We are awaiting another massive Iranian attack. And at this moment, you destabilize the security establishment. In every way, this sums up Netanyahu’s war against the state of Israel. And when I say that this is an act of evil, I can’t think of another example in the history of Israel where a prime minister committed such a crime against our most basic interests.

Was I strong enough on, did I make my opinion clear enough on this point?

Donniel: I think so, Yossi. I don’t disagree with you. I don’t disagree with you, but I actually see this slightly differently, but not in distinction, but maybe in addition. I think by firing Gallant, Netanyahu was appointing himself as defense minister. And what Netanyahu wants to be is Papa Bibi, King Bibi, Emperor Bibi, the one who Israelis trust to solve their problems.

Gallant’s greatest problem was not only the fact that he was about to send out 7,000 draft notices to ultra-Orthodox in respect of the Supreme Court decision. His problem was he was too popular. He was much too popular. And Netanyahu hates when there’s somebody else who Israelis trust. He wants to be the sole source of trust. I am the solution to your problems.

That’s part of what scares me even more, Yossi, and what I feel is even a greater crime. Our tradition teaches us that if you don’t have a partner to talk to you, to argue with you, to present an opposite opinion, you have no chance to overcome mediocrity. By removing Gallant from that security council, the only opposition that Netanyahu has, the only other voices are the voices of the far right who he’s trying to marginalize. But who’s going to talk? Who’s there?

We are beginning one of the most dangerous times. If as Iran promises, they’re going to attack us, what they’re looking for is blood. So far, their two attacks have been a failure. A small percentage of the missiles landed, but there was no blood. Israel attacked, and we achieved a strategic victory. They want to show their Muslim pride, the Iranian pride needs some victory. That means they’re going to have to try to hopefully, in their language, extract some victory. That victory is going to require an Israeli response, which is going to elevate.

So we’re going, like, you don’t have to be a big genius. So if Israel starts attacking the oil facilities, Iran is going to attack Saudi oil facilities. We are at a precipice of profound, profound danger. I want to make sure that there’s strong people arguing. I want to make sure there’s disagreement. And when Netanyahu just wants to prevail, is something so profoundly un-democratic, un-Jewish and dangerous and the consequence, our people could die! What is it that we should do?

When you remove any voice of opposition within your party, that’s what he’s always done. He appoints every minister to the ministry that they’re incompetent in so that no one will listen to them. And now we’re left with Bibi Netanyahu and Sara Netanyahu. That’s it. They’re going to decide and our children are dying and we’re on the cusp of having to make major difficult decisions. To do so without Gallant is leaving a major part of Israeli society feeling unsafe, feeling unsecure, and selling our security for the sake of either fantasy of your position and for your coalition, it’s sacrilegious. I don’t know if it’s a crime, but it’s sacrilegious in Israeli society.

Yossi, last thoughts at this moment of upheaval.

Yossi: How does one emotionally cope with upheaval? That’s the question that I ask myself all the time. And now lots of our friends in America are asking themselves the same question. And this is a moment, I think, to first of all resist the temptation for despair and to turn anxiety into something more productive. And I don’t mean political activism. I’m not going to go there. I’m speaking about our inner life. How does one cope? And for me, it means turning anxiety into prayer, meditation, in the most basic way, reminding myself to literally breathe.

And so what I would like to offer our friends in America who are feeling this acute anxiety and despair is, you know, we’ve been there here in Israel. We are there, many of us. But the key is to not let it overwhelm you and to control what you can control. which is your own emotional and spiritual being.

Donniel: You and I are meditators and that is a profound source of strength for us. But I feel that at this moment of deep upheaval we have to do a lot of listening. Hillel famously said that what’s the whole Torah? What’s hateful unto you, do not do unto others. And there’s a deep truth there. And we can learn as Israelis, what is this, when we were in upheaval and crisis or when we are, what do we need? And our obligation to reach out to all those who are in a similar situation and to respond the way we would like to respond to.

But there’s something wrong with Hillel, because the highest level is not what’s hateful unto you, do not do unto others. It’s what’s hateful unto others, don’t do unto others. We’re not all the same. Israeli Jews and our reality is not the same. North American Jews and their reality, British Jews, German Jews, Australian Jews, South African Jews, Czech Jews, Belgium Jews. I’m naming all the places where our podcast is number one as the Judaism podcast, Portugal, I left out a few, but we’re not all the same.

Yossi: Number one, number one.

Donniel: And I think at this moment, part of what we have to do is listen to each other’s stories about upheaval. Don’t answer. The next short one, it’s not the time for political debates. It’s not the time for, you know, I told you so. It’s just we have to listen and we have to let people tell us what it is that they need. And we have to do the best of our ability to listen to them. So, upheaval. It’s getting tiring. I know today I was asked to speak about, you’re the first person I agreed to talk about this today. like today I just, I just wanted to be a little bit. It’s just, so anyway, Yossi, thank you. It’s a pleasure to be with you.

There’s so much upheaval ahead and we need to be wise and we have to listen. And the greatest voice that we have to listen to as we end this and most of our podcasts is we have to listen to the voices of the 101 hostages who are not yet home. And hopefully, that will change, God willing, as soon as possible. Yossi, be well.

Yossi: Thank you.

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