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Thoughtful debate elevates us all. Donniel Hartman, Yossi Klein Halevi, and Elana Stein Hain revive the Jewish art of constructive discussion on topics related to political and social trends in Israel, Israel-Diaspora relations, and the collective consciousness of being Jewish. 

The podcast draws its name from the concept of machloket l’shem shemayim, “disagreeing for the sake of heaven” and is part of the Institute’s iEngage Project.

Israel at War — America Transcript

Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.

Donniel: Hi friends, this is Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. And this is For Heaven’s Sake, and Israel is still at war. Today is day 221. And our theme for today is America. And the special, strange, complicated relationship that Israel in general, but that this war is having with America and the current administration in general. 

This is a very strange time in Israel. There’s a darkness, there’s confusion, there’s deep conflicting feelings. The desire to defeat Hamas is as strong as ever. But a sense or question or doubt as to whether that’s possible permeates much of Israeli society. There still isn’t a clear idea of what we’re doing and why we’re doing it. The conversation around returning the hostages is becoming even more pronounced precisely because that’s the only objective that we feel could constitute any form of a victory. But at the same time, the hostage deal is off the table. We know Sinwar is surrounding himself with hostages. 

So it’s just this, 221 days, and there isn’t a clear end and there isn’t a clear direction and there isn’t a clear purpose. And so it’s, it’s dark, strange, confusing times for many. 

And part of what’s aggravating it is our relationship to America. If there was one constant that uplifted Israel’s spirit, it was America. It was the administration which made it clear to all of us, you’re not alone. We’re with you. Israel’s security is ironclad. Someone wants to threaten it. The simple word is don’t. Whether that “don’t” was effective or not is a separate question. But from the early visit of Biden to Israel, to the aircraft carriers, to the remarkable coordination in foiling the Iranian attacks, to the constant arming of Israel, to the political support, you know, war is, to say that it’s difficult is trivial. But if there’s anything that gave us extra strength beyond what we had inside as a society, it’s our relationship with America. 

And now there’s a conflict with America. For the first time America said, even though it’s a small, minor shipment and we already have enough bombs to do whatever we need to do, we have enough equipment and munitions to do whatever is necessary to do in Rafiach, assuming that it’s necessary, there, it still symbolizes alienation, an alienation that we’re feeling so broadly around the world.

Besides campuses, we’re feeling it from governments, we’re feeling it from people and demonstrations and statements. And now today, Egypt is saying whether they might wanna downgrade their diplomatic relations with them. We feel it from, in every direction, maybe most significantly, the barometer of Israel’s place in the world, called the Eurovision, which we just had this Saturday night. We had a phenomenal song and a phenomenal singer. And in the popular vote, we came in number 1. But in the 25 countries, the official representatives of the broadcasting associations, we were number 15. And the discrepancy, like, what’s going on here? 

In general, whenever we don’t win the Eurovision, it’s because of anti-Semitism. But it’s like, literally, it’s a very funny conversation, Israel. But you saw, it’s just there’s major parts of the world are not with us. But at least we had America. And now we don’t feel we have America.

And you know, and I was speaking with my colleague and dear friend, Yehuda Kurtzer, my co-president at the Hartman Institute. And he was, he was talking to me about some of the shifting conversation, even in the Jewish community, amongst people who vote Democrat. After Biden said he’s not sending it, we’re never, he’s betrayed Israel, he’s now the enemy of Israel.

Yossi, I want to put some order into this. I want to ask how you’re feeling. I want to think about what brought us to this place. And I think it’s time for us to talk also about this strange relationship that we have with America, both on the American side, on the Israeli side. And so besides militarily, Israel psychologically needs America. And I think Netanyahu needs a fight to show that he’s the man. But how do you understand this moment here? Where does it hit you?

Yossi: So I’m going to be Donniel for a moment and say, I don’t want to talk about Netanyahu. I don’t care about Netanyahu. I don’t care what he needs, what he wants. I want to talk about the deeper issues here. Did I do that right, Donniel? Did I channel you?

Donniel: I want to tell you, we’re at a moment, Yossi, it’s not that I agree with you, I am so proud of you.

Yossi: So really, let’s begin by looking at this through the prism of the Israeli psyche. What is it from our end? Why do we feel so hurt, so angry? Because really, objectively speaking, what did he do? He’s temporarily withholding some weapons that we don’t even need for fighting in Gaza. This is really more a question of our capabilities if the war expands to the north. This is not hurting the war effort. 

But there’s this deep Israeli need, and we’ve talked about this before, to be loved, to be appreciated. And we get so little love and appreciation from much of the world. And America has been there more or less constantly, certainly since 1967. And whenever Israelis are tempted to lapse into the mindset of “the whole world is against us,” we remind ourselves, no, it’s not exactly true. There’s America.

We have rarely, if ever, felt so alone and so unjustifiably accused of the worst crimes. And having had America through this war, and Biden in particular, you know, when Biden came to Israel, we all felt finally we have a prime minister. Finally, we have an Abba who’s giving us the emotional support, the love that we needed. And so an Abba punished us. There was this sense of now when we’re so desperate for your love. And this is really, I think, what it is. It’s a question of parental love. Don’t punish us now. 

So, this sense of Israel feeling so vulnerable in its aloneness, and we also, I think, resent the fact that, we may not express it, but we resent the fact that we’re so totally dependent on America’s love. It’s deeper than America’s material support. We need to know that we’re not total pariahs. And Biden inadvertently has contributed to this sense of despair and rage that Israelis are feeling toward the rest of the world. 

And we know that what they accuse us of is our crimes that we’re not committing. We know this. And for Biden to begin to waver, and do you know what actually hit me much harder, is the report that America is dangling before us intelligence information on the whereabouts of Hamas leaders. If you cooperate with us, we’ll give you this intelligence. You’re not going to share that information? This did get me upset. Withholding the bombs, really, that’s not consequential. 

But if you’re sitting on that kind of information and you’re not sharing it with us, that’s a kind of betrayal. I don’t want to believe that that report is true, but it’s an indication how we’re all feeling, so dependent and so needy. And we need that reassurance. We need America’s love. And that’s what I think this moment is for Israelis.

Donniel: You know, it’s really interesting. I want to play with your analogies, but first I just have to for the record, it was already denied that they were withholding and I didn’t believe it from the beginning. 

You know, America has the objective from the beginning wanted us to win. What, America knows where Sinwar is and they’re not telling us? But what’s interesting is that it, you know, if it was reported, some, it’s, you could believe it. Like someone thinks it’s believable is what’s interesting. 

Yossi: It’s a reflection of anxiety. 

Donniel: Of our anxiety, exactly. What, Israel and America are sharing intelligence reports for, besides for decades, but on this war, like, they’re literally sitting in our war cabinet. You think they would know where Sinwar was, and you also think that America knows where Sinwar is more than Israel knows? Like what? Like there’s, like you know, the whole story, but you’re right. It’s like in a family, you know, half the time, three-quarters of the fights in families have not even been, it’s assumptions, you know, you hurt my feelings, and then once you hurt my feelings, I can assume that that’s taking place. But,

Yossi: Donniel, you just said something really interesting. You just said it’s like a family. Is this relationship familial?

Donniel: That’s, you know, that’s, I don’t know. I really don’t know. There’s something strange about this relationship. It’s not a normal relationship between two countries. You know, and it’s the language is, you know, we share our democracies. There’s something, there’s something different. 

And there is no doubt that America takes license with Israel that it wouldn’t take with any other country in the world. Now it’s true, it supports us extensively, but there’s a comfort in intervening in Israel in a way, you know, they also support Egypt and Jordan and Saudi Arabia. There’s something about, I think America very often thinks that Israel is the 51st state. And Israelis think that America is the extension of the state of Israel. 

It’s like, you know, we have the West Bank and America’s the, no, it’s like, it’s the West, West, I don’t know what direction, that’s the West, it’s the other West Bank. There’s like some, there’s like, we assume that it is our inalienable right that we actually have a veto in the Security Council. We little pishis, we have a veto. We have, because we have America. And of course, America is always going to be on our side. 

And of course, like even when you remember, and we’re not talking about Netanyahu, but it is conceivable for a prime minister of Israel to go to Congress and to critique the president of America, because he sees himself as an insider in America. There’s something strange about this relationship without doubt. And it’s, I don’t know.

Yossi: Now it works the other way around too. You have Chuck Schumer intervening publicly in, I don’t think Netanyahu should be prime minister. Fine, you don’t think so. I don’t think so either, but I’m a citizen of Israel.

Donniel: That’s like, it’s the 50, I’m telling you, it’s the 51st state. I think it’s, there’s something about this relationship. 

Now there is no doubt that Israel has benefited extensively from it. And according to all of AIPAC’s literature, so has America. So I won’t get into who’s benefited or who hasn’t, but it’s gone beyond pure benefit to a deeper, really a family need. It’s not a shared interest. There’s something much, much deeper. And there is no doubt that in that there’s a history, there is no doubt that evangelical Christianity deepens this even more, but not exclusively. There’s a sense that Israel is part of America. 

And in Israel, there’s this phenomenal saying, if you want to say something is great one of the ways you say like, this is a great car, or this is a great, zeh America, you say, this is America. There’s no country in the world, when they want to say something is great, you say, it’s America.

So it’s very deep in the Israeli story, which makes, you spoke about our desire to be loved. When we don’t feel it, I felt that there was another dimension. I agree with you, the love and the appreciation. I think Israelis want to be understood. They want to feel that we’re not crazy because sometimes when you live in this world, you can feel you’re insane. When you look and listen to some of the criticisms against Israel, you know, it’s just, it’s, it, you could literally go crazy. Like, do you understand us? 

Now in this case, this is what makes this complicated. And I want your take on this. See Biden understands us. That’s what Biden understands Rafiach. Part of what the critique against Rafiach is or what is known as Rafah or sometimes when people want to show their insiders they call it Rafach whatever we want to call it Rafiach, Rafah, Rafach, they said, why do you want to go into Rafiach?

Now Israel regularly says we have to go into Rafiach because there’s four battalions left that we have to destroy. Without destroying these four battalions, there’s no, the war will not be won. That’s the official reason Israel keeps on putting forth. But at the same time, all of Israeli press reported this week that half of those battalions aren’t even in Rafah anymore. They’ve left. So maybe secretly we said, Sinwar’s hiding in Rafah. Now it’s reported Sinwar’s not in Rafah. Sinwar stayed all the time in Khan Yunis. 

And all the troops who’ve come back and reported to all of us have told us we almost didn’t encounter any army, any Hamas in Khan Yunis. They’re basically dug down. Now there’s reports of 15-story deep tunnels. So tell me, what’s your goal? So America says to us, I’m with you. October 7th, just war, destroying Hamas, just. A) You have to worry about civilian casualties, and B) What’s your objective? 

So America is actually saying to us, so you’re going to go into Rafah and what are you going to do? You haven’t dealt with the civilian population. There’s going to be an unjust taking of civilian lives without a clear self-defense objective. So we want to be understood. 

And then along comes a Biden who says, he’s almost saying what a lot of Israelis are feeling. Like, okay, there’s an inertia to this war. We want to win. We want to destroy Hamas. If they have battalions and we want to get to them. But you feel it. It’s like sand. You can’t hold it. It seeps between your fingers. And along comes Biden and says, I understand you. I understand you too well. What do you want me to understand? I understand Israel’s interests and I’m with you for Israel’s interests. But is this in Israel’s interest? 

And so it’s a critique that is both upsetting, it’s upsetting because without doubt, Hamas is happy. Whether Biden was correct or not, Hamas is happy today when Biden makes a statement like this, and they feel more emboldened. And at the same time, I think part of the mood we’re in right now is we don’t really understand. It’s not that we want to stop, but we don’t understand. So we want to be understood. Is Biden our inner voice? Is Biden our friend? Where is Biden right now? And there might be a difference. 

Yossi: Look, I think that Biden, you know, he’s, I love that notion of Biden as our inner voice. The problem is Biden has his own political complications right now, his own inner voice, and he’s trying to juggle contradictions. 

One contradiction, one commitment is to be fully with Israel. Biden went all in after October 7th. You couldn’t possibly be more identified with Israel’s war than Biden was after October 7th. Now he’s starting to pull back. Is he pulling back for objectively understandable strategic reasons? Maybe. Or is he pulling back because he’s worried about his left flank in an election year? Maybe. That’s legitimate. He’s a politician. He needs to defeat Trump. 

But on his side, it’s no longer so clear either. And the problem is that, as you just really indicated, Donniel, that when you withhold weapons, there’s a deeper consequence, even than the security implications. And in the Middle East, the psychological dimension is even more important. He’s sending a signal to Hamas and more importantly to Iran that they’re winning. Israel’s on its way to being completely alone. 

Now, there are two components in this relationship that I’d like to speak about and that are playing out intensively now. The first is the strategic component, the second is the mythic. And strategically, it’s interesting that since 1967, which is when Israel became a strategic partner with the US. That’s when we proved our worth on the battlefield. America began paying serious attention to us and began treating us as a real ally. It only happened with the Six-Day War. And in the Six-Day War, we defeated not only Russia’s allies, but Russia’s weapons. So we became a kind of testing ground for America in its proxy war with the Soviet Union, we were the hot war in the middle of the Cold War. 

And so we were this frontline, a very useful frontline for America and the West in its struggle with the Soviet Union. What made the Israeli-American relationship so durable is that it outlasted the end of the Cold War and the collapse of the Soviet Union. We were able to instantly pivot from being useful to America in its struggle with the Soviet Union to being useful to America in its struggle with radical Islamism. And once again, we were the front line. And so America is now itself at a turning point in its own relationship with radical Islamism, where I think that America is still suffering from the way in which Biden retreated from Afghanistan, not whether he should have, but the disastrous imagery of that flight, and the fact that American policy toward Iran and the Iranian nuclear program is a failure. So, of course, is Israel’s. We are now on the verge of a nuclear Iran. 

And so now we have Israel fighting Hamas. But we know that Israel isn’t just fighting Hamas. We know that this is one stage of an Iranian-Israeli war. And by extension, this is a war between the West and radical Islamism. But is the West really committed to fighting this war? That’s part of the question that we’re asking ourselves. And so when we see that our most steadfast ally, not just America, but Biden’s America, is beginning to pull back, the anxiety level in Israel understandably rises.

Donniel: I want to, with great trepidation, delve into American politics. You know, by virtue of my rabbinic ordination, we believe we’re experts in everything. From Bible to Talmud, not just Israeli politics, but world politics, just ask me, I have an opinion about everything. But I want to do it with great trepidation. I just here, I want to make one…

Yossi: So in other words, Donniel, our podcast takes the place of the weekly sermons that you don’t get a chance to deliver.

Donniel: But one thing I don’t do is I don’t connect the events of the week to the weekly portion. How somehow they’re always connected, you know events of the world are somehow, follow the weekly portion of the Jewish tradition. 

I just, you know, I’m not going to say a lot about America and about internal American policy. I just want to say very clearly, I do not believe that anything that Biden is doing right now has anything to do with his concern about his election. I know it’s being presented, you see it in the New York Times, you see it in a number of things. I think it’s a false story. I don’t think the war in Gaza is a major issue in America, at least according to the polls. The amount of progressives, even amongst the Democratic Party, are still marginal, marginal. Look at the Democratic vote for the 17 million. Forget the Republican Party, the Democratic Party. 

Yossi: $17 billion. 

Donniel: Million, I said? That’s when you don’t earn it, but you get it. Million, billion. When you have to. Million.

Yossi: It’s all abstract. It’s all right.

Donniel: It’s all abstract, you know, it’s like billion, million. I don’t believe it. I think all of us, you have to look at what a guy did. Look at Biden. If he was worried about his progressive flank, he would have changed his policies and done things completely different from months ago already. Months ago. And somewhere along the line, I tell you, this aggravates me. Like I know there’s all these pundits and he’s worried about this and that. Crap. Look at what the man has done. Why would he pass 17 billion? Make it 12 billion and say, I’m censoring you for… Really? Look what he did. Look at the way he stood and created and used all of American pull to put together a coalition against Iran. The guy has been with us. When are we, there’s this term in Hebrew, kfuy tovah. How would you say that in English?

Yossi: In gratitude.

Donniel: Yeah, it’s the, kfuy tovah is much stronger. It’s like here a guy has done so much for us. When are you just going to say thank you and shut up and then interpret what he does? Not as an act of betrayal. Like immediately, everything that he does disappears because there’s one thing that he did that you don’t like? I got to tell you, frankly, that aggravates me. It just aggravates it. 

Yossi: But you know what, Daniel, I hear you. But what the—

Donniel: But, yeah, but I’ll let you interrupt me and then I’m going to go on. But please.

Yossi: Yes, yes, because there’s just one point here, which is that the anxiety is focusing on Biden, but Biden is really a symbol and unjustifiably a symbol for that part of the Democratic Party that’s turning against Israel. So if Biden is beginning to send some signals of wavering—

Donniel: Fair enough, I appreciate that. So everybody’s getting hysterical, but it’s not fair.

Yossi: It intensifies the anxiety about what’s happening in the Democratic Party generally.

Donniel: It’s not fair. This man is one of the truest friends of Israel that we have ever, ever had as president. And where are we just going to say maybe he has a point? It doesn’t have to be, because again, we want to assume. Yes, of course we’re right. And therefore, if you’re critiquing us, it’s because you’re betraying us. 

I have to tell you, I am tired of it. I don’t find it interesting. You know, Yossi.

Yossi: Look how we treated Moses. What do you expect? How do you expect us to treat Biden?

Donniel: Fantastic. Forget Moses. That’s the way we treated God. God takes the… You know it’s true, but you just said, now I could give a speech. I could give my sermon in shul. God does 10 plagues, does all the miracles, splits the sea. What’s the first thing the Jewish people say the minute they don’t have the amount of food and water that they need at that second? Oh, what did you take me out for? You took me out to kill me. So you know what?

Yossi: You know the old Yiddish joke, what have you done for me lately?

Donniel: So first of all, thank you for that. I think that I don’t want to be that type of Jew anymore. I want to tell you it aggravates me. It aggravates me. Give the guy the credit that he’s due. That because of this, now, he’s giving in because there’s one state, Michigan, that might have a little, come on. I don’t buy it. And if he was worried about that, he would have changed his policies a long time ago.

But that said, you are absolutely correct that there are very serious consequences here. And the question is, and here you’re putting this into a much larger perspective. And I want to ask you this question. You’re saying, listen, we shifted from the Cold War to the war against radical Islam. And then this war in Gaza becomes the personification of that war.

So the same thing that I said before, and could America have been with us more on this? No. The question is, is whether Rafah, whether we ourselves are undermining the war against terror. There is a serious war against terror, but a serious war against terror requires strategy, requires clear objectives. Now we are claiming we, the war and terror requires the destruction of Rafah. And the American government is saying, I want to fight radicalism.

Yossi: Well, the destruction of Hamas in Rafah.

Donniel: I know, but we, and that’s, this is the story. We have to go into Rafah. When we go in, we don’t go poochy, moochy, moochy. We don’t massage the buildings. We don’t repave the roads when we go in. And the Biden administration has said for months, you want to go into Rafah, I’m with you. Give me a plan for the, you have yet to give me a credible plan.

 Not only that, listen, Blinken is just, he’s just saying what Israeli commentators are saying now all the time. And you know what he’s saying what all of us know. You know what we’re doing today? We are fighting in Jabalia. We’re fighting in Zeitoun. We’re fighting in central Gaza. We’re fighting in northern Gaza. In places that we have fought over and over and over again. As Israel moves out, the so-called battalions that we destroyed, the 20-something battalions of the center and the north, the reality is we didn’t destroy them. 

And so, Blinken and Biden are saying, you want to go in and you want to cause serious civilian casualties in the so-called war against a radical Islam, you’re not winning and your strategy frankly stinks. And he’s saying it. That’s not a betrayal of Israel. That’s a critique against the way we’re conducting the war and frankly, I think that critique is perfectly legitimate. 

Now in Israel, you can’t say you’re against pursuing the war. As long as Hamas is still firing missiles, and as long as the hostages are not home, there is no call for a ceasefire in Israel. Everybody calls for a deal, or half the society calls for a deal. Nobody’s calling for a ceasefire. It’s like almost, the nightmare of October 7th is still haunting you and you haven’t repaired anything yet. 

But somewhere along the line Biden is saying you want to win? This is not going to win. So don’t connect this to the global war against radical Islam. The global war against radical Islam is going to need more intelligent behavior. And frankly, putting it all on Rafah right now, I think it behooves all of us to ask ourselves some serious questions. 

Last comments, Yossi.

Yossi: I think you’re right. We have to ask ourselves serious questions, but they’re not rhetorical questions. They’re real questions. And I don’t know whether Rafah is essential to preventing Hamas from returning to power or not. I don’t know. It’s true that we’re fighting Hamas in places that the army had said we’d already cleared out Hamas from. Nevertheless, we know that Hamas is going to remain a guerrilla force for the foreseeable future. The only question that really matters is can we prevent Hamas from being in a position of governance? 

Now that has two components, a military and a political component. We don’t know how the military component is working out. There’s a big question mark. And we do know that whatever we’re supposed to be doing politically in terms of formulating a morning-after approach, we’re not doing. So this deep sense of confusion, of drift, is coming both from a strategic, a military strategic place, and a political place. And so the administration is stepping in and I’m not sure what they’re saying. You presented their position very clearly. I don’t hear that clarity. 

Donniel: Blinken said it explicitly.

Yossi: They’re not… Yeah, but… So what are they saying? They say to us, okay, yes, a political plan, I’m with you. But strategically, are you ready to support us if we need, for example, to shut down the border between Egypt and Gaza, where the weapons are flowing into Gaza from? Now that’s something that I think really should be on the table.

Donniel: See, but Yossi, this is a great example and this is gonna go beyond our podcast today. If Israel said I have to go into Rafah because I have to capture the Philadelphi Corridor, which is the line between Rafah and Egypt, which basically is filled with tunnels and the primary source of missiles, technology, weaponry, and Hamas money is controlled there. If Israel said from the beginning, why am I going into Rafah? I have to control the Philadelphi corridor.

In fact, as each one of us has our own internal circles, the army three months ago was talking about the Philadelphi Corridor. Go do a little search. Because as you know, I scour the newspapers, scour them, literally, hours a day. Nobody’s talking about that. They talk about going into Rafah. They talked about it because there’s the four battalions. That’s what they talk about and we know the battalions aren’t there. 

Secretly going into Rafa was built around the fantasy that maybe that’s where we were going to catch Sinwar and now that’s gone because, at least according to the sources, which is also funny, because America wasn’t going to tell us, but now we all know, he’s in Khan Yunis. The whole thing is crazy. 

But if that’s what we wanted to do, by the way, that was something we should have done three-four months ago, when we moved into the north, closed off the south, the whole thing is a mess. I think what America’s telling us is, you know, we could want to read America as a marriage, and then Biden, with this declaration, has divorced us. That’s what I find obnoxious. I think it’s not a marriage. I think it’s a family. 

Yossi: Or if it is a marriage, he’s telling us we need counseling. That’s what he’s telling us.

Donniel: We need counseling. Or he’s an Abba.  Or maybe he’s not an Abba. Maybe he’s a brother and a sister. I think that’s what he is. And he’s saying to us, you got to do better. Let’s not read it as a divorce. 

I have a feeling, though, you want to say one last thing, Yossi.

Yossi: Yeah, I had mentioned earlier that there are two components in this relationship, strategic and the mythic. And the mythic is also hovering over this moment. And what binds America and Israel all along has been this sense of a shared mythos.

We’re all committed to the future. We’re all committed to a noble ideal, whether we always fulfill it or not. We’re the little brother. Iran calls us the little Satan and America is the big Satan. So we actually see that sibling relationship, but in reverse, we see it as something exalted, that these are two countries that really have, they’re both societies of immigrants, they’re both societies that have upheld at least a vision of democracy and justice. 

And the shared mythos is breaking down. And it’s breaking down on both sides. And each side is looking at the other and saying, are you still committed to the mythos that held us together? Are you, Israel, still committed to democracy? Are you, America, still committed to defending our shared interests? And big question mark over not only the strategic relationship and how that’s playing out, but much more deeply the values and the visions that have held this relationship together for so many years.

Donniel: You know, I’m not going to say this because I’m giving you the last word, but I’m just putting it out there for us to talk about in the future. Part of the shift in mythos, as you say, is there is no doubt that part of the American critique of Israel during this war is that they would like this war not just simply to defeat Hamas, but to be something bigger against radical Islam, that will require the Sunni coalition and will require a peace process. 

Our sibling in America is in a different place than most Israelis are. And as a result, there is a tension here. But my only prayer is, let’s give America the love, the respect, and the gratitude that I believe they’re due. That doesn’t mean that we have to accept that they’re right. That doesn’t mean we have to accept that every statement is correct and doesn’t have consequences. We’re not alone. 

Well, Yossi, good to be with you. 

Yossi: Wonderful. 

Donniel: This is For Seaven’s Sake, still Israel at War, day 221.

For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute about what’s unfolding right now, sign up for a newsletter in the show notes and subscribe to this podcast everywhere podcasts are available. See you next time, and thanks for listening.