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Thoughtful debate elevates us all. Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi revive the Jewish art of constructive discussion on topics related to political and social trends in Israel, Israel-Diaspora relations, and the collective consciousness of being Jewish.
The podcast draws its name from the concept of machloket l’shem shemayim, “disagreeing for the sake of heaven” and is part of the Institute’s iEngage Project.
After Nasrallah Transcript
Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.
Donniel: Hi, this is Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi, and this is our podcast, For Heaven’s Sake, from the Shalom Hartman Institute, Israel at War, today is day 361, and our theme for today is “After Nasrallah.”
But before we get to the theme itself, which I’m, I’m really looking forward to today’s podcast, Because I have a lot of uncertainty, and there’s a lot of things that I don’t know. And there’s a lot of things that I want to talk to you about and figure out. Because before Nasrallah, things were clear. After, things are changing. Where we’re going, we have to figure out. And I feel that anybody who knows where we are, it’s flawed. There’s so much, part of what we need to do is to try to make sense of this uncertainty.
But first, today’s a very special podcast. This session is being taped livem in front of an audience. Yossi, you and I were here in London, in the United Kingdom.
Yossi: Who would have thought?
Donniel: Who would have thought? It’s a lovely Jewish community here. It’s a beautiful city and a beautiful, beautiful Jewish community, which has embraced us and welcomed us in a very, very special way. And we’re hosted by phenomenal partners, the UJIA, “who play a vital role in ensuring that every young Jew across the United Kingdom has an opportunity to forge a personal relationship with Israel and develop a strong sense of belonging to the Jewish people.” That’s the official line.
Yossi: I was wondering how you were going to handle that.
Donniel: And they do it. And it’s very, very beautiful to see. And the partnership, again, Hartman Institute, we love partners. We love local partners. Because it’s only with local partners that you, you have any understanding of who you’re talking to, and we don’t have finer partners than the UJIA, and we’re really honored to be here. And this taping is at Jews Around the World. It’s called JW3. And for those of you who don’t know, this is London’s only Jewish community center.
And listening to us today is a live audience of young leaders, communal professionals, and part of our For Heaven’s Sake community around the world. So, thank you, and it’s really a pleasure to be here.
Let’s try to figure out. None of us expected the last 10 days. None of us knew. None of us knew that Israel, you said it in the last podcast. I think your language was, you were pointing to the gap between the lack of intelligence in Gaza, and this is actually what we’ve been preparing for. I think you, you spoke about it. But none of us really expected.
Yossi: Not to this extent.
Donniel: Not this level of strategy, sophistication, precision, and success. And the last time I spoke about how I was, I was upset at the, at the beepers, cause I don’t want us being pulled unprepared, being pulled into a military campaign. And one in which other options weren’t, weren’t, weren’t explored.
Yossi: Right, but you were also concerned that there didn’t seem to be a strategic context. It was just something we were doing. We were doing something because we were able to do it.
Donniel: We were able to. What made it even worse is we did it because, you know, the news. Nobody knows. You know, because they were about to discover, and so we had it, so we might as well use it before it gets discovered.
Yossi: Which was my feeling. It was, if we have it, use it.
Donniel: If you have it, but like, that’s like, for me, that was like, fakakta. Excuse my Latin. But like, you know, that’s a reason to go, and now we’re gonna, way is gonna lead to way, and we’re gonna go to war because we had it, we might as well use it.
Turns out that I was wrong. And it turns out that there was a plan. And that I was looking last week at, or 10 days ago, at the beepers and the beginning of that process through a lens of of the up of Gaza, which, it wasn’t just that we weren’t prepared for October 7th. We had no plan for how to fight in Gaza.
Yossi: Well it took us three weeks before we even sent the ground forces, we had to come up with operations.
Donniel: With operations to come up with, and we were making, like still, I feel like we’re making it up as we’re going along. And so I was very, to go into a war in Lebanon with huge consequences is something that frightened me deeply. But we’re in the midst now of what seems to be a well thought through strategy. I don’t, we’re going to talk about it, but, so, how do you, when you think about now, where we are, and again, today, we’re taping, it’s day 361, just 20 minutes ago, missiles were fired at Tel Aviv, and one of them fell on Highway 6. Someone was moderately injured. Not from the Houthis in Yemen, but from Lebanon. There’s tremendous uncertainty, howm let’s try to figure out where we are, and make some sense of it, not sense for the long run, as you know, but just like what we know now, where after Nasrallah, all of this process, where are you?
Yossi: So one of our recurring themes since October 7th on the podcast has been the loss of deterrence. It’s something we’ve struggled with. Can one regain deterrence? What does deterrence mean? Is it so, is it such an abstract concept that really in the end has no significance? And what’s worried me so much about the aftermath of October 7th was exactly this question of Israel losing its deterrence in the most unstable and dangerous region in the world. And how we have always seen our strategic advantage was really based on a kind of a balance of fear. Our enemies needed to fear us. They shouldn’t cross a line.
Now, of course, on October 7th, they crossed every line. And what made the defeat so profound was that Hamas was our weakest enemy. And that’s exactly why we weren’t paying attention to them. But the fact that our weakest enemy delivered the worst blow in our history meant that no one feared us anymore.
And when the Houthis, of all, who ever thought of the Houthis? When they started firing missiles at Tel Aviv, that for me was, that’s the end of our deterrence. And what I feel we’ve regained in the last two weeks is first of all, our self confidence, and that’s so important.
Now it’s interesting because we know, we know kids who have been fighting in Gaza and the level of dedication, the morale, the sacrifice that these kids have demonstrated has, to some extent, compensated for the failure on the upper echelons, but Israeli society didn’t have the self confidence that our kids had at the front.
Donniel: We needed this.
Yossi: We really needed this. We needed this to believe in ourselves, to believe that we’re able to protect ourselves. How many conversations have I had with Israelis over the last year saying, I don’t know if there’s a future here for my kids, my grandchildren? If we can’t defend ourselves against, against Hamas, what future do we have? So for our long term viability, we need to prove first of all, so deterrence in a way is self directed, to deter despair, Israeli despair.
Donniel: I love your commentary on the idea that you’ve been talking about the whole year. Because from the beginning, I never thought in terms of deterrence, frankly, because I also, my brain doesn’t think in these large global moves. That’s why you think about Iran. I don’t, I don’t think it’s my, now I’m starting.
Yossi: You do morality for me.
Donniel: But you, so like you had this deterrent. I said, okay, I hear Yossi talking about deterrents. But you’re doing a phenomenal move today, which I really appreciate, because not only do I not think about deterrents, I don’t rate it that high. Because radical Islam, I don’t think there is a category of deterrents. Iran seems to have some calculations of its own success.
But Hezbollah, Hamas, when you’re willing to die, or when you’re willing to send somebody else to die, which is very often the case, what does it mean deterrence? So I never, like reclaiming some deterrence was not, I want to come back to that, but I, I’ve been thinking about it, but your move was, it’s like deterring, what was you say? To deter our own despair. Qualifies as lovely. It’s like it has an elegance and, and I think a great depth to it and you’re right, there’s been a tremendous amount of despair.
But don’t you fear, don’t, you’re supposed to be always, you know, after Aristotle, the mean, the golden rule, like, supposed to be balanced, everything is supposed to be balanced and life is never balanced. That’s what makes it so insane. We can go from despair. I’m frightened of the arrogance of power. I’m frightened of us thinking that we could just beep away all of Hezbollah. Our ground troops are coming in. We know what that could mean. The death. Like, it’s going to require such levels of sophistication, such control, such disassociation of your political agendas.
This is now, we are at a critical moment where we actually had a victory. We have removed, it’s like Hanukkah, you know, the light, you know, all the despair, there is hope.
Yossi: And there’s something that you’ve said to me in the last days, which is that this is really the first taste of genuine victory we’ve had probably since the Entebbe rescue in 1976. We have not won a war since.
Donniel: That could be very intoxicating, by the way, for a country that, you know, we use hard power military power as a necessary, not because we like it, but it’s a necessary vehicle for our survival. But one of the challenges in Israel is that it also, and I speak about it all the time and I feel it and I felt it so much this last year, it’s because, instead of an ein breirah, something that you use as a last resort, it’s sort of, you know, it’s a way for us to solve our problems. And with that arrogance… so I just hope that the military people, I have to tell you, I trust Gallant. I trust him. He’s hurting his own political.
Yossi: I trust Herzi Halevi.
Donniel: I trust Herzi Halevi. I trust the people who are in the army. There seems to be a plan, but the plan needs to be a plan which doesn’t go back to any of this arrogant language of complete and total victory.
Yossi: Well, that’s, you know, that’s Netanyahu.
Donniel: I’m now going to go, I’m going to go. And oh, Iran, because I could see the, the boastfulness, it’s like, you don’t, this word, we’re at a critical moment in our history. I don’t know tomorrow, you know, today they’re hitting Tel Aviv with six that, you know, we’re flying today back from London. I hope the airport will be open.
Anybody who tells me they know, anybody who tells me they know that now, oh yes, we’ve,, what we know is we know that we have created, we have reclaimed our place as a superpower in the Middle East. You know, I got that from? CNN. CNN. Like when CNN is complimenting us, I’ll take it. It’s like interesting, we’ve reclaimed, and I think I want to think for a while about this because it has huge educational significance. Reclaiming from the despair. But where do we go from here?
Yossi: I want to go back to the point you raised moment ago about the need to maintain a kind of emotional equilibrium. What is built into the post Holocaust Jewish experience is a kind of schizophrenia. We went from 1945 to 1948 from the lowest point of our powerlessness in our history to reclaiming sovereignty in three years. We went from May, 1967. And you’re a kid, you probably don’t remember this, but I remember the Jewish world living in a state of dread that Israel is, God forbid, about to be destroyed. And then three weeks later, we’re standing on the Suez Canal, we’re on the Temple Mount and on the Jordan River and in the Golan. And then we go from 1967 to the despair and disorientation of ‘73. Then we go from 73,
Donniel: Or the victory of 73? That doesn’t count. Then we go to Entebbe.
Yossi: It was lost. Then we go to, and so there’s this sense of, we’re either on the edge of destruction or we’re invincible. And there’s something in our immaturity as a sovereign people, we have not yet internalized that we’ve, essentially, we’ve survived. We’ve won. I mean, we’ve, we’ve won. We haven’t, you know, it’s not the happily ever after, but we have survived.
Donniel: But you know what, when you speak about the schizophrenia, I don’t get schizophrenia. One of the things that had, there was a certain, there was something that I learned early on in my BA, has moved me and has shaped me and accompanied me for most of my life. The teaching of Socrates ,when Socrates discovers that he is truly the wisest man on earth because he’s the only one who knows that he doesn’t know. And he had spent his whole career undermining those who claim to have knowledge.
You know, one of the solutions for schizophrenia is understanding that you don’t know. See, like, understanding there’s uncertainty. You get schizophrenic because you go from one certainty, from one low to, like, we have to embrace uncertainty. And then, like, at this moment, because we could become schizophrenic again.
Yossi: I think that’s one piece of it. Another piece would be that we need to internalize this middle place, which is neither total powerlessness nor invincibility. You can have a great deal of power as we have and still be vulnerable. And being vulnerable is not the same as being a victim. And we don’t know how to do that. How do you, how do you have power? And how do you maintain a position where you can defend yourself in vulnerability?
Donniel: You’re sounding a little bit like me, I think.
Yossi: Uh oh.
Donniel: But I’m with you. Let’s now go back to, I want to push a little bit more this notion of deterrence. Because, again, there’s tremendous uncertainty that we’re facing right now. Our kids are now in Lebanon, and we have bad history in Lebanon, and it’s a frightening, dangerous place. And it doesn’t have the cleanliness, the, you know, the Mossad, you know, last night we were at an event at, I think it was some war room place. And they had a room, zero zero seven where there was a reception. It’s not James Bond.
Yossi: Double-O Seven.
Donniel: Oh, I grew up with James Bond as an Israeli. There was no efes efes kaful. It wasn’t like, I think it was efes efes sheva, I didn’t, I grew up with him as an Israeli teenager.
But you know, it doesn’t work that way. And it’s a mess. And I hope we’ll have the wisdom. But something still remarkable happened and I think we have to talk about it. Let’s get back to, there’s something like, I’ve noticed, I’ve been watching the world. And I follow, I follow and consume, how are people talking about us?
It’s really interesting how there is, Israel now in Lebanon is part of the Sunni coalition. Israel and Lebanon now is, you know, our hope for some stability for a better day after in Gaza is about rebuilding and reclaiming the Sunni coalition. And, but our politicians weren’t ready to do that because that Sunni coalition requires negotiations. That Sunni coalition requires finding Palestinians who you’re willing to talk to. That Sunni coalition is going to require compromise in Judea and Samaria, not to speak about turning Gaza eventually over to some other political force, not seeing ourselves as having to be the perpetual leaders there.
Basically, Netanyahu said, I’m giving up on the Sunni coalition now for the sake of my political coalition.
Yossi: And this is his tragedy because Netanyahu’s whole political worldview was to integrate Israel into what you rightly call this, the Sunni coalition. And he has boxed himself in to such a state where, where he is his own worst enemy politically.
Donniel: And it’s, this is, again, I didn’t want to believe it, but I think here you were right. I think your critique of Netanyahu in the past was, it was so devastating that I didn’t want to believe it, but I, but we did see in Gaza, a choosing of a coalition for his government rather than a larger Sunni coalition, which could,
Yossi: Or even, or even saving the hostages, which is,
Donniel: I don’t know whether we had a, that, that, again, I only want to, I’m not sure what chances we had, but let’s leave that, but I’ll accept that as well too.
But now it’s interesting here. The Sunni coalition is being rebuilt after these 10 days, not by our willingness to renegotiate a future for the Palestinian people, but by the return of our aura as a superpower. And when we are defeating the Iranian proxies. No one’s defeating Iran, but we are these 10 days as everybody says, and you know, I’m just quoting, it’s not nothing that I learned from the Talmud that we have basically defanged a core strategy of Iran to fight again.
CNN says the same thing. When CNN says Israel has revealed Iran to be a paper tiger, these are really interesting critiques. So there is this, something, we have to, something is moving, where it’s going to go again, just like this war, these 10 days opened up opportunities.
Yossi: So I think that that before looking at the opportunities, these 10 days have taught us or reminded us of two essential points about the Middle East conflict. First of all, it’s the Middle East conflict. It’s not the Palestinian-Israeli conflict primarily. And of course, the international community, for understandable reasons, focuses obsessively on that part of the conflict.
And if you just look at the Israeli Palestinian conflict, Israel versus Hamas, then we’re Goliath. And they’re and they’re David. But if you widen the lens, it depends. It depends how you read the map of the conflict. If your map of the conflict is Israel-Palestine, then we’re the aggressor and the brute.
But if your map is the Sunni coalition versus the Shiite coalition, and look, this was always, this was always a regional conflict. It was, in Israel’s formative years, it was the Sunni coalition against Israel. That began to break down first with Egypt, the Egyptian-Israeli peace agreement and culminating with the Abraham accords. And then of course, if the Saudis come in, it is the historic end of the Sunni Israeli conflict. And we’re, we are on the verge of that.
And the second related point here is that peace is, peace is based on a strong Israel. It doesn’t come when Israel is perceived as weak and ineffectual. It comes when we project our power. And Sadat, Egypt’s president, Sadat, made peace with Israel after the Yom Kippur war, when he realized that with all of the strategic advantages, that Egypt and Syria had at the beginning of the war, and they still weren’t able to defeat us, Israel is never going to be dislodged from the territories. He has no choice but to negotiate with us. It’s on that basis that we make peace.
Donniel: Now, this wasn’t what you were talking about, but as I heard you were, as I heard what you were saying, I feel this need to say something. I agree completely about the issue of power. In the Middle East, if you don’t have power, no one’s making peace with you. I’m with you on that.
I’m always frightened, though, of when people regionalize the conflict, even though I objectively agree with you.
Yossi: And ignore the Palestinians.
Donniel: Because it’s the way to do it. They say, ah. And then you have, what’s his name? He has those three letters from Saudi Arabia. M B S L.
Yossi: MBS.
Donniel: MBS. MBS.
Yossi: That was the degree that he almost got.
Donniel: No, MBS. When he says, I don’t care about the Palestinians. But I can’t do something because my people do. But so I’m with you and I see this now Sunni coalition, but for me, the Sunni coalition has to reinforce our commitment to resolve injustice. It can’t be a tool to whitewash injustice and we have to, like, and so that frightens me. So I’m with you and I know you’re with me too on this. So I just, but when I hear it, I am,
Yossi: But not at this moment, I’m not emotionally there at this moment. I don’t have the space and maybe I should.
Donniel: You should, yes.
Yossi: All right.
Donniel: No, and you know why you should? I’m telling you, it’s coming.
Yossi: But I’m telling you honestly, I don’t have the space for it, but right now, and I’ll say something terrible, and something really perverse. But when MBS said that, part of me was saying, ah, okay. You know, that’s great. That’s great. And here is Saudi Arabia, which led, led the Arab war against Israel for 70 years. And now they’re saying that the leader of Saudi Arabia saying, I don’t care about the Palestinian issue. I see that as an Israeli win. You’re saying it actually is, is self defeating.
Donniel: It’s an opportunity. We have an opportunity now. We have an opportunity that by regionalizing the conflict, there are allies that could be created. See, I’m not, I’m not passionate about the Palestinian, about resolving the Palestinian conflict because the conflict that endangers us. I’m passionate about it because there’s an injustice that’s living in our midst. I don’t want this.
Yossi: So this is where you and I completely differ.
Donniel: It’s like, I can’t, I just, so that’s, I just can’t tell you. It’s like, I don’t want to be that people. I don’t want to be that. And part of the planning, when I see now this sophistication, this strategy. So A) I want strategy when it comes to the war and that we fight in Lebanon with wisdom in the most minimal way possible. We need our citizens to be able to go home. We need our citizens. They have a right. Our country, our citizens can’t go home. We have been terrorized by Hezbollah for years. Terrorized. Psychologically, we’ve been terrorized.
You know, the one thing that every Israeli knows, we know how many missiles they have. Like is that a normal thing? If someone would say, you live here in England, like, how many missiles, who’s your enemy? Like, how many missiles they have? Like, who counts missiles? Like, how do I know? Little kids, oh, they have 150,000 missiles. Really? It’s just insane. We’ve been terrorized by them, and they fire at will throughout. And they were always careful to use their weapons as a vehicle of terror, because you don’t have, you’re not trying to defeat us, you’re trying to break our spirit, what you called that despair, with great success. So we have to go to war. We have to enable our citizens to be able to go home. And with a combination of brilliance, sophistication, strategy, and some ground troop movement, I hope we’ll be able to do that. I just hope we don’t go too far. Just like I hope we don’t go too far with, yes, we’re now the new superpower, and everybody needs us, and therefore we don’t have to worry about any of these little, this little Palestinian Gazan mess.
Yossi: Donniel, I have a feeling that this time around we’ve been sufficiently chastened. And we’re, you know, yes, these last 10 days have gone a long way toward restoring our confidence in the army’s capabilities, but there are still very basic questions that are, remain unanswered. How did October 7th happen? How was it possible that the army not only wasn’t defending the border, but seemed to disappear throughout the day of October 7th? There are deep questions here that, that we are, this is not June, 1967, even with these tremendous victories.
Donniel: I want to open up one other dimension, which I see after these 10, 12 days, and I see it as we begin to move into Lebanon and I’m watching world conversation, I’m watching the news, something that I think many of us Jews and us Israelis, we forget again, the world is with us.
Yossi: Part of it. Don’t be too enthusiastic.
Donniel: Part of it. Okay. I know. I can’t say everyone. Don’t be too enthusiastic. I know. I, but I’m a cup half full, like the cup is partially full right now, from Israel being the evil, colonial, genocidal murderers, power, murdering Gazan civilians, which has sort of dominated so much of public discourse. And I’m sure it’ll come back.
Yossi: We’re still there.
Donniel: We’re still there, but it’s a little quiet. It’s remarkable how much support we have for this operation in Lebanon. I didn’t think we were going to have this much support. And I think it pays for us to analyze why. And one of the things that I want to put on the table is that the war in Gaza and the war in Lebanon are classic, just wars. They’re wars of self defense. They’re, in that sense, they’re no-brainers. We had a right to defend ourselves and to try to destroy Hamas. We have a right to try to remove Hezbollah’s ability to terrorize our country and more accurately to move 100, 150,000 people and another half million people to move them home. And the other half million to move out of a constant, missile barrage.
These are, these are, when it comes to war, but these are morally, these are moral exercises of power. You have power to defend yourself and, and that power is an exercise of your moral commitments. Not, it’s not politics. This is your basic right to self defense. Love your neighbor as yourself. You have to love yourself. If all people are created in the image of God, you’re created in the image of God. I could defend myself.
And so it’s interesting that even though we say the world is always against us and the world hates the Jews, this is a just war, and good forces around the world are saying, yeah, we see this as a just war. And it even, they know Iran is sitting in the back of their mind too as a just war. And Israel fighting, we’re there.
But there is something very interesting about just wars. And you and I have talked about it all throughout the year. Just wars have to be fought justly. And there’s technical parts to that. Just wars have to be fought justly by distinguishing between civilians, between combatants and non combatants. Understanding that some non combatants will be, are inevitably will be killed, especially when the enemy embeds themselves in their midst. But you have to do everything in your power to distinguish between combatants and non combatants. And that’s what distinguishes between a terrorist organization and a moral army. All of that.
Yossi: No, there’s something else. What distinguishes a terrorist, a terrorist group from a moral army is that, if you not, if you’re negligent.
Donniel: No, no, if you target, if you target, fair enough, good correction, accepted, a hundred percent. Terrorist organization, initially removes that distinction. And because in order to terrorize, it has to, it doesn’t want to fight an army. It wants to fight us. But there’s something else that I felt very strongly after these 10 days, it came to me to fight a just word, justly. That means to use your force to kill people. And to understand that inevitably non combatants will also be killed because that’s what happens. You have to have a strategy of victory. If you don’t have a strategy of victory and you’re just fighting day in and day out, even though your impetus was just, even though October 7th happened, at some point you run out of your claim to be able to fight a just war. It’s only just to the extent that you actually have a strategy to win. Otherwise you’re just killing people.
Here, here we have a strategy. There is a strategy. As long, here it is. We want to just, people see that strategy and they’re looking at it and they’re saying, okay, fight this war. This is a just war. But again, if we think that this is going to give us a carte blanche and we’re going to try to, the first war in Lebanon, a new, a new order in Lebanon, modesty, uncertainty.
Yossi: So something happened, even, even the way we’re, we’re framing this incursion, we’re deliberately calling it a limited incursion. Now, it could, of course, escalate, but that’s how we’re framing it.
Donniel: I hope this is something that it pays for us to remember. The world is not, there are enemies. You don’t worry. I know there’s some antisemitism, but people, when we function within a moral discourse and within moral parameters which include fighting a just war, fighting it justly. Which means, what is your strategy for victory? Not just, I’m continuing to fight because I have coalition partners who tell me that if I stop the war, they’re leaving the coalition. And by the way, I’m afraid of the same thing because they, those voices are now talking about Lebanon also, like what’s going to be enough if, if we get to the litany and our citizens could go back home. Is that enough? Or people say, oh no, you had a chance now to, to completely wipe, the complete total victory in Lebanon fantasy.
Yossi: I think it’s a really important point you’re raising, in terms of the connection between maintaining our moral credibility and our ability to win, whatever winning means, whatever goals we set for ourselves.
And this is something that some of our right wingers don’t understand. They see moral constraints as weakness. In fact, moral constraints enable us to fight the war. It gives us, it gives us breathing space. It gives us the backing to fight the war. And this notion of what they, what they perceive as weakness is really our strength. And that’s been our strength all along.
And so what makes it so, what has made it so difficult this year is that we’re, we’ve been fighting by far our ugliest and most brutal war, what I believe also one of our most necessary and unavoidable, but to have this government, which lacks the most basic moral credibility, nevermind in the world, for so many of us in Israel, for Jews around the world, that has been an additional anguish. And you’re right, now there’s this feeling that not only have we reclaimed the higher ground militarily, strategically, but maybe also morally.
Donniel: We have to hold it, and that will require a lot of wisdom.
Yossi, thank you for, I’m thinking this through, and I really appreciate being with you. Friends, this is For Heaven’s Sake, Israel at War, Day 361.
Yossi: London.
Donniel: In London, with good people. And while we’re basking in some success, uncertainty still awaits us, we’re still gonna remember that it’s 361 days and our hostages are still in tunnels and not at home. Yossi, nice to be with you.
Yossi: Good to be with you.
Donniel: Be well.
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