Tosefta Sotah 15: 8-15

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TEXTing with Elana Stein Hain delves deeply into Jewish texts to guide and inspire us as we grapple with the concerns and meaning of this moment. Join Elana as she addresses the issues of our day through the lens of classical Jewish texts, in conversation with Hartman scholars Christine Hayes, Yonah Hain, and Leora Batnitzky.

TEXTing. Where ancient wisdom meets contemporary relevance.

Finding Joy in Crisis Transcript

Note: This is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation, please excuse any errors.

Elana: Welcome to TEXTing, where we consider issues relevant to Jewish life through the lens of classical and modern Torah texts. I’m your host, Elana Stein Hain. If you’d like to follow along with today’s text, you can find the link to our source sheet in the episode description. We’re recording on October 8th, but this episode comes out just a few days before Simchat Torah.

Simchat Torah has always been a time of celebration. My kids get up, get to stay up late, and we build up reasons to go to the dentist, they get lots of candy. I spend some hours trying to engage them in dancing with the Torah, and by the very end of the evening, we’re kind of hyper, a bit sweaty, and very, very tired.

But last year, as we anticipated the arrival of Simchat Torah, we were crushed by news so devastating that it eclipsed all positive emotions traditionally associated with the day. October 7th shattered what Simchat Torah was meant to be. And as we approach the Hebrew calendar yahrzeit of October 7th this year, we are still feeling that loss, fear, and uncertainty about the future.

A couple of weeks ago, the community at the synagogue we’ve been going to in Israel had a discussion about what Simchat Torah should look like this year. I know that outside Israel, people are asking this question as well. It was amazing to see people trying to take control of their own narrative, to mourn suffering that’s ongoing while continuing to persevere and even experience joy.

So for this episode, I want to think about what it looks like to continue to live and to experience joy amidst ongoing trauma. Because that is what Jews, and especially Israelis, are being asked to do. In essence, what we want to think about are three different Simchat Torah experiences. 2022, before October 7th, 2023, with our streams of information coming in regarding October 7th, and this year, 2024, a year since that fateful day.

To do this, we’re going to look at the end of the Tosefta of Tractate Sotah. Throughout the Tractate, there’s a discussion of loss and how life continues beyond it. It’s incredibly pertinent for right now. To join me, I have my favorite chavruta — don’t tell the other TEXting scholars, please — Yonah Hain. Hi, Yonah.

Yonah: Thank you for having me, Elana.

Elana: So, tell us, what was Simchat Torah to you prior to last year?

Yonah: Simchat Torah for me is the major Jewish holiday in which it is not for me, and I don’t mean that I dislike it.

Elana: We’re a perfect couple.

Yonah: No, what I mean is, if you think about it, I’ve never been a part of those memories you have of Simchat Torah night. I am at Columbia Barnard Hillel on Simchat Torah night. So at night, I’m there, supporting students, engaging in interesting conversations of how to navigate different communal needs, when to divide and conquer, when to be all together, questions of public displays of religion, when to be in the building, outside of the building, on campus.

And then in the morning, I’m serving our kids’ needs, you know, from when they were young in the plush Baby Sefer Torah toy, you know, the Torah scroll that you flail around to the flags they made, to the candies they want, to now ensuring that our 13 year old gets their first Aliyah on a Simchat Torah. Every other holiday I have spiritual responsibilities on my mind. And here I’m really in service of others.

Elana: Wow, so when we get to talking about 2023, I’m sure that’ll come through. But let’s jump into the text. We’re in Tosefta Sotah, chapter 15. But it’s important to know that both chapters 14 and 15 describe a decline of Jewish society, loss after loss, sort of in a blow by blow kind of way. It’s a loss in the form of graying of life after the fall of the Temple, the degradation of Torah, even fruit doesn’t taste the same. And really actually seeing the layers of loss over time, decline of society, and then declining loss after the destruction, or as the destruction is taking place. So the last few sections at the end of Periktet Vov, chapter 15, discuss suggested responses to this kind of loss, in terms of changing the way that people lead their lives to reflect a recognition of what’s gone.

And that’s why I like it for this moment, because it’s sort of like, we’re trying to figure out, what do we change, what do we keep the same, knowing that we’ve lost something and the loss is actually ongoing.

Yonah: When you speak big-picture about ongoing trauma and yet persevering with joy, we’re going to ask the nitty gritty. So what do you remove? What do you add?

Elana: Oh, 100%, those few weeks ago, these people in shul, they were talking about like the logistical elements that make or break an emotional experience for Simchat Torah. So I want to do this in three sections, which is sort of my want. The first section I’m calling homemaking limitations, because the rabbis decree that people should hold back on some of the joys and niceties of building a home, whether literally or figuratively, and here’s how it goes.

It says, Be’pulmus shel Aspasianus, during the war of Vespasian, which is like a few years before the temple is destroyed, gazru al atarot chatanim, they made a decree that, meaning Jews themselves, their leadership, made a decree that men, grooms, should not wear a wedding wreath. And then it describes, what we’re talking about is, they weren’t allowed to wear a wedding wedding wreath that was actually made of minerals like brimstone and things that were sort of durable, but they were allowed to still wear a wedding wreath made out of roses and myrtle branch. Okay, so that’s sort of one stage.

Be’pulmus shel Titus, and then in the war with Titus, which is either a few years later, it’s actually referring to something much later, and it’s a different person altogether. Gazru al atarot kalot, they made a decree, meaning the Jews, the leaders themselves, made a decree that the brides weren’t supposed to wear wreaths or crowns at their wedding. And it describes, well, they couldn’t wear the golden version, but they could wear a mineral version that was a little cheaper, right? And they also decreed, v’shelo yelamed adam et beno yevanit, that you can’t teach your child Greek, hitiru lahem le’beit Rabban Gamliel lelamed et beneihem yevanit, mipnei shehem kravim lemalchut, except Rabban Gamliel’s family, because they were liaisons to the government, so they need to be able to speak Greek.

Yonah: So we have grooms, brides, and then Greek, and an exception. So that would be kind of like no tuxes, no high heels?

Elana: Yeah, something like that. Or like, a certain spending quota, right? Like, you can’t, I can’t tell if this is about temporary versus durable, and basically saying like, things feel more temporary now, or if it’s about expensive versus less expensive, or maybe both.

Yonah: Right. And the Greek part makes it feel like this is a little bit of a question, not necessarily to, or the Greek part specifically is not diminishing joy and making it look different as much as it’s trying to distance from a certain influence.

Elana: Yeah, I actually think this is really fascinating. It’s almost like, you might be asking yourself, did we make ourselves vulnerable, ourselves vulnerable by getting engaged with the enemy culture in such a strong way?

I mean, I hate to say this, butI, I mean, no, I don’t hate to say this, this is sort of what it brings up for me, is questions that people are asking themselves about the exposure that they’ve given their kids to certain progressive ideas, to certain anti-Israel ideas, the question of whether you make yourself vulnerable by being kind of open to everything. It’s what it raised in my mind. It’s a Rorschach. It’s kind of what it raised in my mind in this.

Yonah: So do you think that the groom and bride limitation are also issues of influence, like these are imports from Greek culture? Or you think they’re more like what we’re going to see in terms of changing lifestyle?

Elana: Yeah, it’s hard for me to know because it’s definitely true that in sort of Greco-Roman culture, they also had their wreaths and their headdresses. But you see that way before, like Song of Songs, Shira Hashirim talks about wearing a wreath at your wedding. So, it’s, I don’t, I don’t think that it’s conclusive one way or another. I think you can have a lot of different responses.

One response is less abundance. One response is make things more temporary to represent how maybe you hope this stage is temporary or you feel like things are temporary because you’ve lost your stability. And maybe ask yourself questions of, wait, maybe we need to turn inwards a little bit, right? There’s a little bit of a turning inwards, even if we don’t say it the way that, you know, you just said it, there are a lot of Jews who are turning inwards right now. Not that they’re saying, don’t do that, but they’re sort of like, let me focus a little bit more on my Judaism right now. Which I think is kind of interesting.

I wanna do one more piece of it because it moves from not just being flashy at weddings or maybe fraternizing with the enemy’s culture. It moves to even how they build their homes. Right. Something much more elemental. And it goes as follows. Ve’shelo lasud beito basid, they actually made a decree that people couldn’t use limestone, which is like a very sturdy and beautiful material. They couldn’t use limestone to build their houses.

And then they say, well, if they mixed in some straw with it, maybe it’s okay. Or if they mixed in sand with it, then it’s okay. And Rabbi Yehuda says, no, no, no, even if you mix in sand with it, you actually make it stronger that way. So you absolutely can’t do this. And I’m, I think this is so basic. It’s like the fundamentals of their lives have changed. I mean, I’ve definitely seen this in decision making, not just to not, this is manifesting morning, but it’s also something about how, literally, the foundations on which we live should look different to represent the shift in the foundations under our feet.

Yonah: This is what I saw in 2023. As the stream of information was coming in, we were assessing, all right, what do we do? Right? Should we cancel the whole thing? We didn’t have a lot of information. We didn’t really know what was going on. It was all so new. And It was the college students who saved the holiday for me. I was pretty distraught. I was very distracted.

Elana: Yeah, of course.

Yonah: And college students with the bravado of youth and the need for that catharsis of dancing with the Torah and being in community. So for some of them, the modification was only minimal, you know, the bride and groom, change your wreaths. But for some of us, it was a little bit more fundamental. You know, the foundation was lost. And when the foundation was lost, I’m not sure I would have pulled off a proper Simchat Torah. The students inspired me to get there.

When it was with our children the next day, that was a different story. That was quote unquote “easier” because for them they should be shielded from certain elements. But I think this transition reminds me of two of the camps in Simchat Torah ’23.

Elana: Yeah, and what you’re really, oh, sorry.

Yonah: It goes one step further in terms of changing the foundation of our homes. We had this conversation about those who observe Shabbat and Yom Tov who would not normally watch television, about putting the television on to news channels on the holiday.

Elana: Yeah, so you can follow along.

Yonah: And sort of, experience a holiday with contradictions and fundamentally altered states of celebration and observance.

Elana: Look, if I can share this, it’s not from October 7th, 2023, it is from this past week, Rosh Hashanah. I was sitting with our family, and I asked a family member if he wants to make a l’chaim with me, because, you know, l’chaim, it’s a new year.

Yonah: He does every Shabbos.

Elana: He does it every Shabbos, and he does it always with me, that’s our thing. And he said, he said, what’s there to make a l’chaim for? It was very poignant, and I said, you know what, treating your in law, me, like family, that’s what we make a l’chaim for right now. The fact that I’m in Israel, and that you’re hosting me, and I want to appreciate you for that. But it was definitely very natural for him to have that reaction.

I will say what you’re also pointing out is in this first part, it ratchets up as time goes on. First it’s, the men are not wearing wreaths at their wedding. Okay. I mean, no offense, not the biggest deal. Then the women are not wearing their wreaths at their weddings. They go, whoa, whoa, whoa, the bride has changed? Then it’s, we’re not learning Greek. Literally, the word that’s used in this tosefta, pulmus, for war, is Greek. Okay? We’re not using Greek. Then we’re changing how we build our homes. Like, it feels like it’s getting more and more and more.

And I want to bring us to section two, because I think in section two, what you start to see is, like, that intensity becomes the norm. Section two I call kind of the ascetic response to tragedy, to destruction. And it’s from Rabbi Yishmael. And in some versions it’s from someone else, but we’re going with Rabbi Yishmael. Amar Rabbi Yishmael, Rabbi Yishmael says, mi’yom shecharev beit hamikdash, from the day that the Temple was destroyed, din hu shelo le’echol basar, we shouldn’t eat meat, ve’shelo lishtot yayin, and we shouldn’t drink wine, elah, except for the fact, elah she’ein beit din gozrin al hatzibur devarim she’ein yecholin la’amod bahen, except for the fact that we can’t make a decree on people not to eat meat and not to drink wine because they’re gonna do it anyway. So you can’t make a decree that people can’t actually abide, meaning there’s a recognition here.

What Yishmal wants to do is he wants to say, we should never have things that express any luxury or exuberance. No eating meat, no drinking wine, except people won’t listen, right? It’s not about showing how people organically feel. He actually wants to make them feel this way. And they won’t do it because people need to live. And he goes a little bit further even. He says maybe Jews shouldn’t even marry because of the Roman decrees. It’s likely a reference to the practice of Prima Nocta, you know, a local Roman government official raping a bride on her wedding night.

Or he says they should maybe stop having children because they’re endangered by having to do circumcisions, right? He even says, he says it so strongly, he says, maybe we should do these things. Don’t get married. Don’t have children. Ad shelo yichle zaro shel Avraham yeelav, maybe we should make ourselves disappear. Maybe we should make ourselves disappear and not wait for the Romans to do it. But this too is rejected because he says the people won’t do it either.

What do you think of this sort of ratcheting up of, no, no, no, maybe we should really tear it all down?

Yonah: This is cancelling Simchat Torah.

Elana: Yeah. But I think you know Rabbi Yishmael wouldn’t be happy about this because he says I wish we could tell people or we should tell people not to drink wine and not to eat meat, but they won’t listen. We should tell people maybe not to get married, but they won’t listen to me That’s actually amazing, right? It represents the will to continue to live and to enjoy despite the odds. Meaning, he’s like annoyed that people won’t listen, but,

Yonah: Yeah, but I don’t know that the reason why they won’t listen is because of their, you know, vision. It sounds like he’s just saying it’s for the reason why we should cancel Simchat Torah. It’s because people can’t even, you know, do the right thing.

Elana: Listen, I was thinking about the fact that we do actually have the practice of not eating meat or drinking wine nine days before Tisha B’Av, the day of the destruction of the Temple. And people still can’t even do that. They can’t even do nine days. So, look, this is why we’re married, right? I’m taking the idealistic road. You’re taking a little bit more of the, well, people are hungry, they have a craving for meat, but can’t we also say people have a craving for joy?

I mean, this week there was a, like a picture that was sent around of Doron Katz, who was a former Khatufa. She was a former hostage. She’s pregnant. It’s literally the picture of her, the announcement of her pregnancy is like going around social media like wildfire because people crave joy. They want continuity.

Yonah: So Rabbi Yishmael is praising the Jewish people for their inability. Yeah.

Elana: I love it. I love it. Look, I was talking to a friend who says, I just don’t eat anymore. I don’t eat anymore. And this person, they really don’t eat anymore. Meaning they are, they can go the entire day with not realizing that they haven’t because that’s organically where they are.

But I think there is something to be said for people who are saying, no, we’re gonna eat. We need to eat. This is a testament to, we’re not going to destroy ourselves because we’re trying to beat our enemies to it. We are going to continue to live. But that’s not what Rabbi Yishmael necessarily wanted them to do. I mean, we don’t, it’s hard to know. Right? And do we psychologize Rabbi Yishmael? He was a Kohen, he was a priest, so is it harder for him? I don’t know. Right? I don’t know. But that’s sort of our really intense, like, cancel it all.

And then we’re in part three, which I would call rejecting Rabbi Yishmael, right? The first part was sort of limiting our building of our homes, literally and figuratively, and sort of that expansion, by expansion as we go through the experiences of what we limit. Then we have Rabbi Yishmael who wants to stay at that sort of high pitch, but people, the masses won’t do it, whether because they need in a sort of carnal sense, or they need in an emotional psychological sense, and they have hope and they want to believe.

But here comes rejecting Rabbi Yishmael. And rejecting Rabbi Yishmael goes like this. From when the temple was destroyed, there were many abstainers, or what I might call ascetics in Israel who refused to eat meat and they refused to drink wine. Right?

Yonah: Just like Rabbi Yishmael had proposed.

Elana: They went the Yishmalien route. Nitpal lahen Rabbi Yehoshua, so Rabbi Yehoshua decides to talk to these people.

Yonah: I love that verb.

Elana: Right? Nitpal. It’s like, uh,

Yonah: Imma deal with this.

Elana: I’m gonna, I’m gonna deal with this. That’s beautiful.

Yonah: You know, you think about it in a Jewish leadership perspective and there’s certain people who are doing this and someone says, Yeah, I got this one.

Elana: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or somebody else says, can you go deal with that? Can you go deal with that for a second? Okay. Amar lehen, so he says to them, and this is a beautiful way he says it. He says, B’nai, my children. Mipnei ma ein atem uchlim basar? Why aren’t you eating meat? Amru lo, they said, nochal basar, we’re going to eat meat, shebechol yom haya mizbeach, that every day meat was put on the altar in the temple, a sacrifice? V’achshav batel? And it’s null and void and we’re gonna sit here eating meat? How could we? So he says, okay, fine. You know what? I accept. Let’s not eat meat.

Yonah: You could read this in a far more sarcastic tone.

Elana: I believe that is a theme that we are developing here. That perhaps you are looking at the more sarcastic side of life and I am looking at the more idealistic. I wonder if we would do the same off camera, so to speak.

Yonah: Well I don’t he’s contrasted two opposites.

Elana: I know. That’s even a deeper level of amazing.

Yonah: Yeah, meaning one is sarcastic and one is loving, but not idealistic. Both could, both have ideologies behind them. Meaning is Rabbi Yehoshua saying, I’m going to take care of these fools or is he pedagogically helping them along?

Elana: Right. Or maybe he could be doing both at the same time. Yeah, I hear that. I guess I’m a sarcastic person who’s also loving, so they don’t have to be opposites, I suppose. So then he says to them, why don’t you drink wine? And they say, where did they drink wine? Wine was given as a libation on the altar. And now it’s null and void. How could we? He’s like, Okay, okay, don’t drink wine. Right? Now I’m reading it in your tenor.

He says to them, okay, you know what, I’ll raise you. I’ll see you, and I’ll raise you. Im ken, lo nochal lechem. Let’s not eat bread. You know why? Because they would give a bread offering, on Shavuot, and they would have show bread in the Temple throughout, and then he goes, like, to the kind of ad absurdum, he says, we shouldn’t drink water either. They would give that as a libation on Sukkot, right? Also we shouldn’t eat figs, we shouldn’t eat grapes, because those were things that they brought in the first fruit. And you know what their response is? Shatku. They were quiet.

Yonah: Yeah, because in essence, the transition from temple life to ritual outside of the temple is completely altered and every facet of life, not just having to do with the food and drink consumption can be traced back.

Elana: Yeah, but that also means that everywhere they turn, as much as he’s being creative and ad absurdum and getting them to admit what they’re wrong, everywhere they turn, they’re reminded of their loss. Literally, everything you look at reminds you of loss.

Yonah: It’s all consuming. And that’s, and that’s why I feel this text speak to me in this moment. Because this is saying, okay, it’s not 2022 and 2023 anymore. What are we going to do? And these folks had certain suggestions and maybe it worked for a time. Maybe you could have had a diminished Simchat Torah in 2023, but we’re not canceling Simchat Torah. So what is 2024 going to look like?

Elana: By the way, you know what? I saw somebody say this in such a great way, Susan Bell, she’s an academic. She wrote that this is a moment where ritual meets history, right? Meaning the ritual experience, because that’s really what we’re talking about. And by the way, that’s what we’re talking about with crowns at weddings also.

Right? The change that you make becomes a new ritual in a way, but it’s the original ritual meets history head on and has to figure out, okay, how am I going to move? How am I going to change? And this is a moment where it’s happening again with Simchat Torah. The ritual is going to meet history and whatever you do now to mark it will itself become a ritual, right?

Yonah: So let’s see what he suggests after rejecting Rabbi Yishmael.

Elana: Yeah, so Rab Yehoshua is, he’s kind of the anti Rabbi Yishmael here, and he’s just not gonna allow it. So he says, look, my children, lihitabel yoter midai, i efshar, we can’t mourn too much. Now, you have to be careful.

Yonah: Life will cease to exist.

Elana: Right? Meaning, I don’t think he’s saying it’s not possible to mourn and mourn and mourn and mourn. It certainly is, but we don’t, that’s not where we wanna go. Veshelo lihitabel i efshar, and you can’t not mourn. So instead, this is what the sages have for you. Sad adam et beto basid, we go back to the limestone, build your houses out of limestone. But u’meshayir davar muat, but leave a little section undone, zecher l’Yerushalayim, to remember Jerusalem.

Make your big seudot, your big festive meals, but leave out a little something as a remembrance for Jerusalem. Women should adorn themselves with their makeup, but leave out something in order to remember Jerusalem. And here’s what’s remarkable, he cites two verses, or the Tosefta cites two verses. The first verse is, im eshkachech Yerushalayim tishkachei yemini. Right? If I forget Jerusalem, then my right hand should forget itself. In other words, I have to remember, I have to recall always this loss.

But here’s the second verse that he quotes. He says first, ve’chol ha’mit’ablim aleha ba’olam hazeh, smichim ima le’olam ha’ba. All who are willing to mourn with Jerusalem now, in the future, we’ll be able to have joy with her, she’ne’amar, as it says, simchu et Yerushalayim ve’et kol ohaveha, make joyous Jerusalem and have joy, rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all those who love her.

And the reason why I love this ending is it’s so clear that this is saying you have to hold the joy and the mourning together, right? But the ending of saying if you experience mourning now, you will experience joy later, it’s almost like he’s saying, please don’t forget how to have joy because you’re gonna need it later, right? Meaning, your whole future is not just a future of mourning and if you go too far, you may actually forget right? Don’t be afraid of mourning. You must mourn. But don’t let it consume you.

Yonah: I like the proposal because it’s saying, look, we have a rich tradition and we have nurturing rituals. And within this spiritual discourse, let’s navigate, not all or nothing, but tweaks, tweaks that significantly or in substantive ways demonstrate the new reality.

Elana: It’s not just demonstrating the new reality. What I love about that verse is, what does it say at the end? It says you should rejoice with Jerusalem, all who love her. Actually showing some mourning is also a sign of love. You love what you lost. And that love is important and it counts.

Yonah: It just needs to be channeled in the proper way. So Simchat Torah 2024, we do seven Hakafot, right? The circles, the dancing with the Torah. Should one of those seven be slow, sad songs? Should each of the seven begin with a sad song? Or should each of the seven conclude with a slow song of remembrance? If one of the seven, should that be the first, should that be the seventh, should it be in the middle? And I think all of these, this whole discussion and all of these options are the spiritual legacy of Rabbi Yehoshua in this text.

Elana: Yeah. Can I tell you what the rabbi of the community suggested? Rabbi Michael Melchior, for whom I have a lot of respect just in general, which is what drew me there. He started by saying, hey, wait a second, how come people never talk about the fact that on Simchat Torah we read about Moses’ death? There is sadness and tragedy within Simchat Torah every year. We just choose not to focus on it. And what he sort of gave people permission to do is he said, find the intensity of the holiday and bring some of the trepidatious intensity and some of the sad intensity and allow it to come in.

And so the suggestion was, let’s do Hakafot and let’s dedicate each Hakafah to a different group of helpers or to a different group of people and sing songs related to that theme. And I was just, you know, holding it all together is really, really hard and people are going to disagree and kind of by definition, nobody’s going to agree on exactly what they’re supposed to do.

Yonah: Yeah, but isn’t that the beauty and messiness of the Jewish people?

Elana: Or it’s the hard part about being where we are because this is the smallest, the smallest part of what’s hard about being where we are. But I do want to emphasize that I think love is the essential element. Love is the element in the mourning, and love is the element in the joy, showing love in lots of different ways. Yonah, thank you so much for being here.

Yonah: Thanks for having me, Elana.

Elana: Thanks for listening to our show, everyone. Special thanks to my chavruta this week, Yonah Hain. TEXTing is produced by Tessa Zitter with production assistance from Sarina Shohet. Our senior producer is M. Louis Gordon, and our executive producer is Maital Friedman. This episode was mixed by Ben Azevedo at Bear Cave Audio, with music provided by Luke Allen.

We’re always looking for ideas of what we should cover in future episodes, so if you have a topic you’d like to hear about, or if you have comments about the episode, please write to us at texting at shalomhartman.org. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, sign up for our newsletter in the show notes and subscribe to this podcast everywhere podcasts are available. See you next time, and thanks for listening.

Thanks for listening and Chag Sameach. Lots of love, everyone.