The challenge and crisis of conversion in Israel   (31/03/2008)

CommentsAdd your Comment
Secular conversions?
This is just stupid. Are you suggesting secular conversions? What would that require, for someone to break all Jewish laws, or anyone he felt like in order to be a secular convert?
Michael Hessler, Israel, Feb 23 2009 2:14:00:000PM

recognize the non-Orthodox, but as separate sects
My point is not that any of the halakhic requirements set forth by our sages of blessed memory should be diluted...but that the modern State of Israel, which should be religiously neutral, can recognize the de facto existence of Reform,Conservative,etc. The State already recognizes Karaites and Samaritans as Jews. They have their own batei din, and a status aparte within Judaism.The Rabbinate,under this system,will still be free to decide "Who is a Jew" or not accdording to halakha,but their decision would not be binding on the State and the State would similarly have no influence on Torah Judaism.
Mike, USA, Apr 16 2008 12:59:00:000AM

Ne-eman Committee
Let`s be completely honest and face reality. The Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist Movements are here to stay, as are their conversions. Orthodox Judaism may have legitimate criticism of these non-orthodox groups, but spewing hatred toward them isn`t going to make them disappear. For this reason, I really liked the ideas from the Ne-eman Committee. Just think about it for a moment! A non-Jew, who knows little about Judaism, decides to convert Reform (the "easiest" way). At the joint conversion course, the potential Jew learns--in a kind and non-threatening atmosphere--about more traditional forms of Judaism. The potential convert begins to have second thoughts about "converting Reform" and becomes drawn to more traditional Judaism. Everyone wins! I am all for conversions being done properly. The recommendations from the Ne-eman Committee ensured that conversions would be done properly. The current situation--with endless roadblocks and unusually strict requirements--is nothing but an idiotic tragedy.
Dan, USA, Apr 6 2008 5:34:00:000AM

No-Gov`t Sponsored Rabbinate is the Key
Rabbi Hartman`s statement, "If we choose to have a government-sponsored Rabbinate, we must have multiple rabbinates," is proof that Israel needs to have NO government-sponsored Rabbinate at all. Perhaps an advisory panel made up of rabbis of all streams to assist the Knesset in decisions regarding religion and citizenry. Unfortunately, while this makes sense, those who control the power AND THE PURSE STRINGS will never compromise.
Skavanagila, Israel, Apr 5 2008 2:07:00:000PM

Conversion in Israel
At a time when we should be embracing people who want to become Jews, we drive them away. All streams of Judaism follow Torah except the secular. It is the the Talmud`s often contradictory interpretations where we disagree. The more we learn about the universe the more we can understand the Torah, and Judaism has room for increased understanding. We need this new breath of understanding if we are to survive. Stan Newman
Stanford Newman, U.S.A., Apr 4 2008 8:31:00:000PM

Conversion in Israel
If the state of Israel were ever to accept non orthodox conversions that would be the end of the Jewish state. Since according to Jewish law these people would not be considered Jewish it would irreparably damage the fragile unity of the nations Jewish identity. I am afraid the author is dreaming if he thinks otherwise.
J. Paltrowitz, Israel, Apr 4 2008 5:56:00:000PM

Conversion
Politics, and government, are a dirty business, and the Israeli Rabbinate simply by being a part of these structures has twisted and perverted Judaism, Halachah, and Jewish spirituality. Most importantly, neither the Beit Din nor it`s Rabbis confer conversion on a non Jew, that is done by the Almighty who grants the Gentile a Jewish soul following his immersion in a mikve and in the case of men, his circumcision, the Beit Din and it`s Rabbis are simply the earthly instrument for carrying out certain Halachic procedures. Tragically, our Rabbinate and it`s Rabbis, seem to think that they have taken the place of HaShem and that they are the ones who are converting a non Jew. And even worse, most of these Rabbis are largely ignorant of the generous, merciful, and loving aspects of Judaism, and concern themselves with pilpul and the marginal exclusive aspects of our wonderful, charitable, and spiritual Faith. Unfortunately the Israeli Rabbinate is wholly immune to change of any kind and therefore the only effective answer I can see is to take conversion, (and divorce) out of the hands of the Israeli Rabbinate and turn these affairs over to secular Jewish civil servants.
Kenneth Besig, Israel, Apr 4 2008 3:37:00:000PM

Conversions
Exactly WHERE in the Torah are all these rules we use today for converts? In fact MOST of our rules are TRADITION and as traditions we have out done ourselves. Ruth herself wouldn`t pass all these rules. It is especially mean that converts are watched for any future violation of orthodox requirements and are threatened with having their status changed at a latter date! Jews have always had various views about practices; lets face it applying a 2000 year old system to modern times requires certain `interpretations` . I think it is about time we step back from all our traditions built up over time and give this a fresh new look; remembering that G-d values the convert more than born Jews. Further since we remember what it is like to be a ‘stranger in a strange land it should be rule one NEVER to question the status of a convert after they have converted. What were the requirements of Ruth? While true we can never really be sure what is in someone’s heart, a little trust in our fellow man is in order. Besides it goes further than this. The fact is born Jewish people now have a difficult time proving their status in Israel, because their RABBI isn’t on the correct list! People have found themselves combing through cemeteries in Europe trying to find their grandparents graves/records anything to prove their parents were Jewish, so they can marry and it’s only going to get worse. This is ridiculous!
Malka, USA, Apr 4 2008 5:51:00:000AM

conversions,all kinds,for anyone
BH By this imaginary standard of liberism ,fairness, and inclusivness.,a doctor,dentist mechanic or pilot,should be certified by any standard,that one desires.By Feeling ,by emotions,by attitude,on can be whatever one wants. G-d made the standard,and as difficult or unfair as it seems ,it is to everyones benifit.Certification of religon has to be certified ,there will be no meaning or reality ,if everyone defines matters,as he sees fit.
fishel katz, usa, Apr 3 2008 11:27:00:000PM

Faith and Conversion
As a Jew in the diaspora I deplore the spiritual situation in Israel.The whole thing can be said in one word: Intolerance. Faith is not a article to manipulate or monopolize.Orthodox itself has departed from Torah turning Judaism in a religion of men ideas and rabbis opinions.Gay orthodox? why Messianic Jews,as Torah observants still been discriminated?
Paul Velasquez, USA, Apr 3 2008 8:38:00:000PM

Convert to what?
Beni Jaacob became Beni Israel when they mass converted to the worship of the One as demonstrated by their oath of fealty, "We will hear and do". Now I can certainly understand circumstances under which people will a limited connection to Judaism might nevertheless want to be considered Jewish. But why should such an individual be exempted from the oath? There _are_ problems with the Orthodox monopoly. There are bigger problems with ordaining practicing homosexuals as rabbis, as some of the Conservatives have done. As for patrilineal descent, I could support it--with DNA testing. The seventh commandment would not be given if weren`t a problem, and if the mother was not willing to covert in advance, the integrity of the community cannot be maintained by ignoring the matter. Me? I`m fine as a Torah-observant Gentile. But that`s another matter.
Nathan ha Goy, USA, Apr 3 2008 7:25:00:000PM


the Jewish people accept converts who want to practice Judiasm and that means Orthodox if, after learning and converting the convert chooses to be less observant at least they have a deeper understanding of Judiasm this is non issue by ignorant people, who want what they want when they want it
charleston, USA, Apr 3 2008 1:53:00:000PM

secular jew
Reply to Akiva goldberg,One does not convert to be a secular jew, the problem with your question is the word Religion,remember at mt, siani ? the whole nation of Israel came into its new found FAITH not religon, a mass conversion, for all times past, present, and future, shown to us in the writings of the Torah the Book of Ruth for example.Remember now at Siani ?? We will Do and we will Learn. One more quote if I may on rememberance, Remember you too where a stranger in a strange land, welcome Home.
john o toole, Israel, Apr 3 2008 1:29:00:000PM

reply to mike usa
You got me on one of my favorite subjects, love to get in touch, if you wish drop a line to same hostel they are on line, one thing this whole colum shows is not how much we are divied`ed but how much we care.
John o Toole, Israel, Apr 3 2008 12:43:00:000PM

Conversion
Religions who impose themselves via the power of the state are essentially weak religions and can`t survive on their own. The scriptures were written in different times, when we were hugely ignorant. If they do not adapt, they will lose. The orthodox monopoly is not due to the torah, but is political in character. It is simply stupid--that`s common in irrationality--to have atheist israelis as jews, but consider people who went through a reform conversion process of 18 months non-jewish. Israel keeps talking about the importance of aliyah in the face of its decreasing, but it keeps one of the worst obstacles to it for party-political reasons.
oao, usa, Apr 3 2008 8:05:00:000AM

hortodox are the problem
I hope you will be able to succes. the future of AM ISRAEL is linked with your fight succes. good luck d
daniel farcas, chile , Apr 2 2008 8:01:00:000PM

Karaites & Samaritans
I think the solution should be the State recognizing the non-Orthodox denominations in the same way they acknowledge the Karaites & Samaritans.To my knowledge, their civil procedures(divorce & marriage)are recognized by the State.For all intents & purposes they have the status of Jewish Israelis for purposes of aliya & social recognition.If Reform,Conservative,Reconstrutionist conversions are recognized in the state, the Orthodox Chief Rabbinates(Ashkenazi & Sefaradi)can still maintain lists of who has had a proper halakhic giyyur (according to their standards)& who has not for purposes of marriage--just as they do in chutz la`aretz-even if the State recognizes the othr denominations-and just as the state essentially recognizes Karaites & Samaritans as Jewish.
Mike, USA, Apr 2 2008 7:36:00:000PM

Personal comment to John O Toole
Hi John, I believe I know you from several years back--and wish to say hello. You used to work at Momo`s Hostel on Ben Yehuda, in TA...correct? Anyway, I wish to send you my warm regards and best wishes if you see this and I hope you are well. Kol tuv!
Mike, USA, Apr 2 2008 7:27:00:000PM

Enough!!!!
"There are many types of Jews – Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal, and Secular."Yes, there may be many TYPES of Jews, but there is only ONE TORAH JEWS. Please. stop, enough already. Judaism is not a pick & choose religion. Judaism never asked for people to join the Ranks. That is the way he wants to bring his child into being Jewish is by lying? There is no challenge or crisis. The only ones finding hardships are those who are looking for quick solutions. Sad
Asher, United States, Apr 2 2008 7:03:00:000PM

How exactly?
How does one convert to be a secular Jew? A person cannot undergo conversion to a different ethnicity (ie. someone born to two African parents could never become ethnically Chinese). Conversion has to do with religion and the Jewish religion has to do with the Torah. So how exactly should a non-Jew convert without follow the precepts outlined in the Torah.
Akiva Goldberg, Israel, Apr 2 2008 5:43:00:000PM

refom conversion
My disenchanted Catholic female friend married a Jewish man. Her two sons had "B`nai Mitzvot" celebrations in their reform temple. They are both involved with and will probably marry gentile women. Who is Jewish here, besides the father?
fred, USA, Apr 2 2008 6:22:00:000AM

conversion
Shalom Rav,as i share your fustration and truely feel it in my heart, I must disagree with you, and agree somwhat with Marsha,as a convert myself here in Israel, A process i would`int wish on my great`est enemy (in my case)But I did it, and stupid me, would do it again,I wish i had time to explain, and i am not one walking around with my kippa and strings to prove my worth, quite the reverse,its not about being an Israeli (heaven forbid)or being religious,!!!even living in Israel,but about being a Jew- a Torah Jew in mind, body and soul.I know this leaves much to discuss,but the real travesty is that so many want to BELONG without truely not knowing WHY, and or for, all the wrong reasions.The Torah fence must be protected at all costs, and strenght`ind where-ever possable,the Rabbinate have a heard job to do,but do it they must for all our sakes,in a word. Of my teachers my rabbi`s, WHY.
John o Toole, Israel, Apr 2 2008 6:10:00:000AM

re:standards for conversion
The standards for conversion in the torah and the bible in general were simply accepting Israel`s G-d as the one true G-d and wanting to be a part of the Jewish people. Where in the torah is the elaborate process used by the Orthodox described. Aside from current halacha, exactly what is the danger to the Jewish people from patrilineal descent. I for one believe that the survival of Israel in part depends on increasing the number of people who (at the very least) identify themselves as Jews.
alan, usa, Apr 2 2008 4:57:00:000AM

Conversion standards
In joining any religion, one accepts the rules of conversion. The Torah establishes the rules of conversion, not the Rabbis. Unfortunately, Jews who are non-observant of the Torah`s rules feel they can simply make their own rules. It`s tragic that these people would rather permit anyone to claim they are a Jew by any self designated standard.
yameen, USA, Apr 2 2008 2:30:00:000AM

Correction
The Reconstructionists also acknowledge patrilineal descent
Stuart Rosenberg, USA, Apr 1 2008 9:21:00:000PM

Conversion
Thank you for this piece. I fear though, that your message falls on deaf ears, as the comment of Marsha indicates. The sad fact is that a Jew who wants religious freedom should not go to Israel, and those who support the current system are not interested in religious freedom for Jews - only the imposition upon all Jews of their own, orthodox, version of Judaism.
Lloyd, Canada, Apr 1 2008 8:02:00:000PM

conversion
I am not a practicing Orthodox Jew. Accepting Hitler`s definition for the law of return was an accomodation to save lives. Hitler does not decide questions of Jewish law. Gentiles are free to live in Israel but do not become Jews unless they choose to undergo an Orthodox conversion.This is the halacha according to our Torah sages. Not everbody needs to be Jewish and a righteous Gentile should I believe be welcome in Israel, and according to Torah is welcome in the next world. We have a blessing added in the Amidah for protection against those that threatened to destroy Judaism from within. The army major should not have lied the first time. If the child wishes to convert according to Orthodox standards when he is of age it is his option to do so.If not there is no shame in adopting and raising Gentile children.
Andy, USA, Apr 1 2008 5:39:00:000PM

Standards for conversion
With all due respect to the Israeli army major, the standards for conversion were not set by the Israeli rabbinate, they were set by the Torah. They are merely enforced by the rabbinate. The "travesty" he speaks of, that one cannot convert anyway one wants would indeed be a travesty if any type of conversion WERE to be accepted. It is not the Orthodox changing the standards, it is the other "streams". Already, the reform acceptance of patrilineal descent has posed a grave danger to us as a people. If Israel were to accept this, the already widening division between Orthodox and everyone else would be an irreparable chasm.
Marsha, US, Apr 1 2008 3:13:00:000PM

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