The ultra-Orthodox, gays and the future of Jerusalem   (24/06/2009)

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My take on it
Jerusalem must stand up for the values of Torah or we will loose the city, as we have many times before. It`s a shame that the Haredi sector doesn`t have a pr wing to explain their official views, and where they stem from in the Torah. Blessings to all.... Aryeh Raphael www.JerusalemPrayers.com
Aryeh, Israel, Jul 19 2009 9:47:00:000PM

fundamental flaw
The fundamental flaw in the logic here is the idea that Jerusalem belongs to "all of us." Jerusalem belongs to God--Zion is his. If he gives control of it to Babylonians or Haredim it is still his. It does not belong to all Israelis citizens or all Jews or to Jews, Moslems, and Christians. It belongs to the Lord of Hosts!
billy, israel, Jul 19 2009 9:35:00:000AM

Gays and acceptance.
Being "Gay" has to do with choosing and being involved in an unacceptable lifestyle. It doesn`t matter what, or how we feel, it matter`s how G-d looks at it. G-d hates sin, and sinful acts, and he dosen`t hate the sinner "until" its very obvious that he, or she, has no intention of changinging their ways. It`s very obvious at how G-d looks at homosexuals and their "perverted behavior". It`s in the "Scrolls", it`s in the "Book" Taking a "wrong" and presenting it to the uneducated as being "right", will work if pounded into them over and over again. However, it will never be an accepted norm to our Creator. When enough is enough, He will take action. The perverted need to be aware of this. It`s a fact of the Jewish culture, and it`s history. Be informed as to how G-d sees homosexuals by looking into the "Book". He dosen`t change. He is consistent. We`re to learn and live by His standards, not by those that promote lifestyles contrary to His accepted norms.
BBud, USA, Jul 19 2009 3:05:00:000AM

LET KEEP THE TORAH
MOSHIACH NOW!!! MOSHIACH WILL DESTROY ALL TRANSGESTOR INCLUDING GAY AND WHO DOESNT OBSERVED SABBATH SOON THE JERUSALEM WILL BE A HOLY CITY ... NO GAY NO NON BELIEVER NO NON SABBATH KEEPER... JUST PLAIN TORAH KEEPER bARUCH HASHEM...
FERDINAND, PHILIPPINES, Jul 14 2009 12:33:00:000PM

Jerusalem
Part of me is amazed at what I have read and part of me is not. To see such sin being accepted by Gods chosen city and people is unreal. We say it is in the name of tollerance however it is in the name of humanistic pride of forsaking the laws of God for the pleasures of self. It is this that caused Lucifer to fall, man to fall, cities to be destroyed by God and less we not forget Israel to be forsaken and taken into bondage. Do you not see in the scriptures Gods feeling towards this? Do you not read the Laws or do you just profess with no convictions or relationship? Can you not see the history of Israel and its kings? Can you not see as in times past that Gods judgement will fall because Israel has forsaken him. When are we going to take a stand? When are we going to take God at his word and stop looking for excuses to justify our pride, for pride is the root of sin? I do not hate anyone but we need to take sides. "Who is on the Lords side" as Moses said! For some strange reason we like to forget this and what God commanded to be done to those who did this act. Tollerance is the virtue of a man or woman with no convictions.
RAL, United States, Jul 13 2009 4:18:00:000AM

Jerusalem, an open city ?
Plain comment sense, which the orthodox people do not have. But, with the Israeli proportionnal voting system, hardly any government can impose anything on those guys.
Olivier, France, Jul 12 2009 7:40:00:000AM


Very nice article
Yitzhak, , Jul 12 2009 2:21:00:000AM

Jerusalem
This says it all. ""This is not simply a political issue. It is at the core of our religious values and vision for Israel in which our loyalty to our people must precede our loyalty to Torah. It is an issue which will defines the meaning and essence of Zionism today."" Isn`t this where we all fail? Loyalty to man not loyalty to god.
Larry Bartlett, USA, Jul 11 2009 10:07:00:000PM

Sounds good . . . but DEAD WRONG !
You say "our loyalty to our people must precede our loyalty to Torah". BUT, it is the Torah that defines "our people"! And also by the way, God says that Jerusalem is HIS, not necessarily yours or mine (Deut 12:5) And the simple truth is that although God certainly LOVES gays . . . not a single one of them will be in heaven, unless they repent. God destroyed entire communities for this abominable sin (i.e. Sodom), and shall we allow them to OPENLY PROMOTE IT? God himself will exclude the gays from eternal life itself unless they repent. IS HE UNJUST in doing so?
Michael T., USA, Jul 11 2009 1:46:00:000PM

Jerusalem is not for Zionists
Your essay calls on all zionists, be they religious or secular, to embrace the uniqueness of Jerusalem, yet the very essence of Jerusalem`s uniqueness is being the spiritual epicenter for religion (not just Judaism, but all major religions). If Jerusalem is to be cherished by all zionists as belonging to all Israelis, then this would necessitate annexation of Al Aksa mosque and refusal of non-Israeli Arabs from entering the area. Instead, it is held independent of the politics that zionism has created and allows all religions to proceed as designed. Jerusalem is not for the zionists, but rather for the religious of all faiths.
Eliyahu Ben Shmuel, USA, Jul 8 2009 6:06:00:000PM

Jerusalem
Right on point. Of course, this well-argued essay and its message of tolerance and כלל ישראל will fall on deaf ears, as always. That is the tragedy of the counter-historical fundamentalism of the Haredim.
Scott, USA, Jul 7 2009 3:48:00:000AM

Jerusalem, Capital of all Jews
To gnarlodious and others: First of all, the gay parade in Jerusalem is not an exhibitionist affair as it is in NY, Tel Aviv or other world cities. It is a modest political march in which the participants respect the special holiness of Jerusalem and do not dress or act inappropriately. It is a protest march for recognition of a political minority by Jews in the capital of the Jewish people.
Jeff, USA until aliya, Jul 7 2009 3:26:00:000AM

Jerusalem
there is an existing status quo here.#2 homosexuality need not be publicized,i dont see any heterosexual parades,nor do i see any beastiality parades.why the need to publicly declare "lets break down the fabric of society".isnt it enough the torah refers to it as an abomination-your torah too rabbi hartman so should we allow this to be flaunted in the HOLY OF HOLIES
jeff, Israel, Jul 5 2009 9:02:00:000PM

Kedusha
This is way off: The article writes, "Our tradition teaches us that to love G-d means to cause G-d`s name to be beloved to others." What in the world sense is there in having people who reject and deny G-d`s holy Tory and break his laws of relationships between people and of the Shabbos `love` G-d`s name? Of course they don`t love G-d! They are sinning directly against Him! To support and encourage desecration of the Torah in the name of building `love` of it is a direct, 100% contradiction in logic.
Avreicher, Jerusalem, Jul 5 2009 6:07:00:000PM

Jerusalem for all people
Dear Rabbi Hartman, I tend to agree with you as per Jerusalem being the capital for all jews-Observant,non-observant ,Gay & heterosexual. However I take issue in your reasoning for this :you dichotomize Jerusalem as A Godly entity vs. a political entity, the later being a rational for its` serving all people. On the contrary,because Jerusalem is a Godly city it embraces all of mankind regardless of political,religious or sexual identification.As expanded extensively in the works of Shneur Zalman of Liadi & other Hassidic Masters, God in his ESSENCE is ALL ENCOMPASING FOR ESSENCE IS ULTIMATE SIMPLICITY.Do we not say 3 times per day in our prayers (Alenu): HASHEM HU ELOKIM-in the heaven above and in the earth below there is no other. THe city of Jerusalem `s holiness is inextricably connected to its being an tolerant abode for all. Consistent with this concept is the Rambam`s valuing "THE MIDDLE ROAD" as the ideal one for life`s journey. BY no means is he espousing a LIBERAL THEOLOGY on the contrary as he writes THIS IS "GOD`s WAY"--the deeper one connects with GOD;`s ONENESS the more man`s breadth of spirituality will encompass all.GODLINESS IS INCLUSION & NOT EXCLUSION! DR.(RABBI) Richard Lesni-
Dr. Richard Lesni, U.S.A. /Israel, Jul 2 2009 12:12:00:000AM

Shabat parking
I accept what rabbi hartman says about Jerusalem being a place for all jews. How ever jews that represent gods tora can not stand by while the shaboss is being desacrated. God tells us in his tora that that shabat must be kept by all jews.If jews stand by quietly this is a sighn of aproval. Violent protest are not Backed by any group. However peacefull protest like the one on friday night are a sign of commited jews Standing up for there gods houner.
mike, israel, Jul 1 2009 10:17:00:000PM

Article-Shabbat
Dear Rabbi Hartmann, Your liberalism sounds good. Unfortunately it is a pawn in the hands of those who would destroy you and everything you stand for. Whether you want to believe it or not they are your buffer. They are fighting your fight. Nobody is against anyone elses human rights to be anything they want. But this is an organized affront by a Bolshevik media, etc, etc, to destroy religion and any possible good it could do. Your good will is like being a good natued doorman letting in paganim fromthe main entrance. I don`tmuch care for the black hats either - but I do not live in a bubble. They are doing the right thing. You should try and slant things from tand not try to their angle and not only solicit points from the nihilists. Yours, Max Stern
Prof Max Stern , Israel, Jun 25 2009 8:10:00:000PM

Gay parades are good...
What most Israelis don`t get (besides the theocracy problem) is that having a flagrant minority restrict their exhibitionism to a small parade one day of the year is a good thing. Santa Fe, for example, is a rather conservative Catholic town with a large homosexual population. They are mostly invisible and don`t offend anyone. But one day of the year they have a parade where all sorts of sexual absurdities take place in public. View these activities at your own peril, there is no obligation to be offended. So the point is, one little parade is a healthy outlet so those who are thin skinned don`t have to see such offenses every day of the year on every street. They should just accept a good deal when they get it offered.
Gnarlodious, Santa Fe, Jun 25 2009 8:04:00:000PM

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