Gaza War: We won, we left, now what?   (20/01/2009)

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We won
You didn`t fight. You massacred unarmed civilians. 1400 dead (including 600 childredn) 5000 to 7000 permanently maimed. There was a ceasefire but the Israelis violated it and the rockets started up again. You didn`t win either. It was this massacre that turned the whole world against you. The callousness of the IDF shocked the world. What you do not want to have done to you, do not do to another. Remember? Pat
Pat Xavier, Canada, Jun 23 2010 12:26:00:000PM

An undefeatible spirit
For most Israelis, what is reflected is the complete indifference to the atrocities that have been perpetrated upon the Palestinian people collectively, as documented for decades by even Israel`s own human rights organization Btselem and echoed by many other organizations throughout the world. Israel`s version of living in peace has nothing to do with justice, and whether the rights of the Palestinian people are recognized or not. Israel won nothing. The Palestinian people may have suffered catastrophically in this recent onslaught, but there is no victory because Israel has not destroyed the spirit of the Palestinian people which is undefeatible.
Marlene Newesri, USA, Feb 6 2009 12:03:00:000PM

victory you say?
how can you call it a victory when you killed childrens and womans?
victory?, Malaysia, Feb 4 2009 2:36:00:000PM

what a victory ?
what a victory ? killing defendless civilians, most of them children and women, elders and innocent civilians how glorious is that ?
facts, canada, Feb 2 2009 9:48:00:000AM

Doing the Math.
Could this whole thing be simply a question of not being able to see the wood for the trees? If all our words and observations can do little more than catalogue whatever crimes and indignities man can heap upon his fellowman, then what is the point of them? If the record of our shortcomings and failures as a species, already so voluminous, can be compiled with such ease, then shouldn`t it serve some purpose other than that of mere commentary? Otherwise, there is no real value in any of these endeavours. Think of a man being chased through a forest by a pack of wolves. He`s running for his life and he knows it. In consequence, while the thorns and brambles he stumbles across in his flight may impede his progress to some extent, the pain they inflict upon his person has scant influence on the direction and speed of his passage through the forest. He cannot, at this time, be overly concerned by such trifles. It is only when considerable distance has been placed between himself and his pursuers that the man can begin to assess his overall condition, take note of the injuries he has sustained and make proper provision for his next move. The Israelis and Palestinians have been stumbling around in just such a manner for generations. Both have sought to escape the forest but each attempt has led them that much deeper into it. With mindsets geared primarily to the proximity of wolves, their failure to spot one obvious course of action is, perhaps, understandable. Although still deep within the forest, a way out, albeit temporary, does exist. The possibility of climbing a tree is always available. The wolves are thus kept at bay and time is gained for a more leisurely appreciation of the surrounding area. This, in turn, may very well indicate an exit previously hidden from what had been, hitherto, a much lower vantage point. http://yorketowers.blogspot.com So, time to stop thinking in our standard two dimensional fashion. Let`s start thinking in 3D. And, let`s also remember that weapons far more deadly than words hang waiting in our armoury, ready to do battle in our cause. Although I recognise the subject is not everyone`s favourite, maybe it`s high time for us all to settle down and `do the math.`
John Yorke, UK, Feb 1 2009 2:40:00:000AM

We won
Naturally there are those who don`t see any victory for Israel, since they deny the right of Israel to be Israel. We won in the sense that people are at least temporarily safer in the south of Israel. We won in that we sent a message to murderous enemies, and perhaps even placed a bit of doubt in the minds of Palestinians who hitched their wagons to Hamas. Finally we won because Israelis in spite of these constant wars still wish for peace far more than the Palestinians do. I have never heard Palestinian leadership voice that they wish to live in peace side by side a Jewish State. They teach their children to hate and to embrace a violent path toward Israel. Golda Meir said it well. "we will only have peace when they love their children more than they hate our children." So tell me, given that mentality and that reality, who are the true victors and who are the true losers? Bravo Rabbi Hartman for framing a realistic sense of a recent military operation. May it lead us at least to an altered landscape of choices and opportunities.
Ian Silverman, USA, Jan 29 2009 7:24:00:000PM

david hartman article
People cannot live in a state of perpetual uncertainty. No nation can learn to exist in such a confusing psychological context. Your words are empty for a people struggling in such a condition.
neil perlman, usa, Jan 28 2009 10:23:00:000PM

Dayenou
Thank you for let us hear the voice of Judaism with its message of morality and longing for human dignity and coexistence with the "Other". But we should not stop longing for an end of war. After Dayenou, we say on Passover: a fortiori shall we praise God if we achieve the final goal. We need to learn from Europe where France and Germany succeed to live in peace after centuries of war and the Nazi worst of crime. The only way is to build a common goal with our neighbours, the "Other". Stop destroying and start building with Science, Business, Culture. Above all build with respect of human lives and human Rights.
Michel Revel, Israel, Jan 28 2009 6:30:00:000PM

"We Won"
"We Won" What? Militarily there was no real enemy to fight. No SAMs no AA guns, etc. In cost, Israel paid more to run this war than all the destruction it visited upon the Palestinians. Politically, Hamas is many folds stringer than it ever was. It is the one marginalizing Abbas, Isral`s friend. Arms smuggling according to the Army has started. May be not in full swing, but in time it will be - Hamas is still there. International public opinion is running 7 to 1 against Israel. War crimes charges are flying out - even from Britain. The UN agencies and spokesmen are denouncing Israeli action every morning, in the morning. Exactly what was won by Israel?
Richard Burton, USA, Jan 28 2009 9:35:00:000AM


Israel attacked, it had a doubtful victory and it did not leave. If the aims of the war were political, it is not clear what has been achieved - other than make Israel immensely unpopular in the rest of the world. And Israel still occupies gaza and the West Bank. It might be mor productive to preach peace to the occipier.
facts on ground, , Jan 27 2009 2:47:00:000AM

Gaza
There is no future for the Israel in the Middleast isreal should be relocated to Belize in Central America. Next 25 years isreal as a country will disapeare as a country if it is not
Rpbert Smith, usa, Jan 27 2009 2:01:00:000AM

Yup - we`re DEFINITELY the good guys
As Dylan said, we have God on our side. Therefore, when we unleash a deeply unholy war, driven by the timing of elections here and in Israel, we`re still the good guys, surely...we`re not like Hamas who killed 13 civilians since 2005??? Nah - we`re much more efficient.
Ari, US, Jan 26 2009 9:12:00:000AM

The bible ?
The bible is a fairytale. Oops, there goes 90% of your argument. As far as "winning" is concerned, you still have a couple of million enemies to kill.
Eric, Netherlands, Jan 24 2009 12:38:00:000AM

Defining victory.
Interesting definition of victory.
vandie williamson, United States, Jan 23 2009 10:57:00:000PM

Thank You
Thank you for the framework you provided in your essay two weeks ago, as our community tried to navigate difficult moral questions having to do with Gaza. And thank you now for modeling a way to think about the way forward realistically and meaningfully. Your thoughts have been truly helpful in thinking through these issues.
Elana Kanter, Phoenix, AZ USA, Jan 23 2009 4:01:00:000AM

Reality
Thank you, Rabbi Hartman. You have given us a profound and historical analysis of Israel`s experiences, wars past, present and future, and a Dayenu for our present.
Alan Kohn, U.S.A., Jan 22 2009 6:18:00:000AM

we fiought,we won,we left
just a comment- why are we so quicl to analyse every move we make???
ruth, Israel, Jan 21 2009 5:14:00:000PM

dayenu
Dear Sir, This is intersting to know the dayenu and its meaning in the post Operation Cast Lead.Yes no one forsee the future and people of Israel are destined to live with uncertainity. Regards Uma shanker
uma shanker, India, Jan 21 2009 9:36:00:000AM

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