The pain and dilemma of an Israeli father and citizen   (30/12/2008)

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To Rabbi Mark H Levine
Rabbi Mark H Levine, USA, Jan 7 2009 10:08:00:000PM asks many questions concerning the conduct of countries calling themselves democratic. Did this bother him greatly when Israel worked hand in hand with the savage White regime in South Africa to develop it`s nuclear bombs?
Anthony McNamara, Australia, Jan 9 2009 4:31:00:000PM

to h123
Thanks for the link to the article; unfortunately, this bit of PR fluff doesn`t justify your immoral support of terrorism against a democratic, sovereign nation. The terrorist leader of Hamas said he is willing to enter a "hudna" with Israel; he is not recognizing Israel`s legitimate right to exist. A "hudna" is a tactical tool used when Islamic forces are in a weak position. The purpose of "hudna" is to give time to rearm for the next encounter. All Hamas needs to do to join the civilized world is recognize Israel`s right to exist, foreswear violence, and accept previously agreed treaties. Why do they refuse? Because they embrace the doctrine of "muqawamma," or constant warfare. We already know Israel`s position -- they`ve signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, two countries that have recognized Israel`s right to exist. Not surprisingly, there has been peace between them for 30 years.
Rabbi Mark H Levine, USA, Jan 8 2009 8:11:00:000PM

to Rabbi Mark H Levine
Never? I suggest you read this ... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html
h123, , Jan 8 2009 12:43:00:000PM

To h123
Hamas has NEVER accepted Israel`s right to exist, much less offered to make peace if Israel would return to pre-1967 borders. And yes, Hamas came to power in a democratic election, but it seized complete, totalitarian power during a bloody coup in 2007. Do you honestly believe that the jihadists in Gaza are democratic? Does a democratic government gun down its own citizens who have been accused of "collaborating." Does a democratic government gather the political opposition (Fatah) and mercilessly maim them. Does a democratic government use civilians as human shields? Does a democratic government send it`s troops into battle dressed as civilians in violation of the laws of armed combat? Sadly, your neutrality is not only politically misguided, but also a moral failure. There is no moral ambiguity in this war.
Rabbi Mark H Levine, USA, Jan 7 2009 10:08:00:000PM


Menachem, I know perhaps most Israelis are under the illusion that these are surgical strikes but independent human rights organizations have confirmed that schools and hospitals are being targeted. Now tell me how can Hamas hide in a UN-run school which Israel hit yesterday? And after that tell me if there is any empathy, any compassion, in stopping humanitarian aid from coming into Gaza? There are people dying out there because of lack of medical aid. Please understand that all of this is going to radicalize more people, which is not what you are seeking. I am afraid, from a neutral point of view, seeing all that, it does not seem at all that Israel sincerely cares for the innocents in Gaza as you say it does. As for missing opportunities, do you say that election by majority is not acceptable to your countrymen? Hamas may be thugs but they did offer you to return to pre-1967 borders, why wasn`t that accepted?
h123, , Jan 7 2009 8:10:00:000AM

h123
Of course we see their suffering. There is no army in the world that does as much as ours does to mitigate civilian casualties; often at great risk to our own soldiers and military objectives. Understand that every single Palestinian death is 100% the fault of Hamas. We grieve for these people as we do for any other tragic event that hurts G-d`s people which is not of our doing. I grieve more for the Palestinians of Gaza as whole. 3 years ago they were given the opportunity to create a Singapore on the Medditerian. Instead, they chose, in voting for Hamas, the path of terror and destruction. It`s very sad, but it`s not our fault. If we can defeat Hamas we`ll give the Palestinians yet one more opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Menachem, Israel, Jan 4 2009 7:55:00:000PM

To h123
How about.. hamas recorded a video of them shooting a boy. then edited to make it look like the IDF did it! do they care about the children ? apperntly not..so why should he ? while IDF looking for the hamas,they are in kindergartens..drinking orange juice.. now YOU tell me,what kind of behaviour is that?
vika, Israel, Jan 4 2009 1:12:00:000PM

End of your dilemma
Your dilemma is more painful due to the fact that you don`t live in an area where you kids lives and yours are already at risk. If you moved to Sderot you dilemma would be less painful. We all know deep down that this will not be the last time we go back in to Aza and that we will also be back in Lebanon again. None of us want war, we all want peace, but we should not let the economic prosperity that we have all come to enjoy blind us into thinking that the days of war are over. We have just finished the holiday of Hanukah, Yehuda hamaccabi was killed because of the very same mistake in ethos. After his string of military victories and re capturing the temple (along with the miracle of meorah), he let the soldiers go home "We no longer need to raise our children to be soldiers". He did not have long to wait to find out that the days of war were not only not over, they had just begun. Let us pray that the days of war are over but prepare ourselves for the likely event that our prayers will not yet be answered.
Moshe, Isael, Jan 4 2009 12:58:00:000PM

Rabbi Hartman`s article
Beautifully said. As a mother with a son to be conscripted in the army in 6 months, I completely relate. To those who worry also about the Gazans killed in the strikes: their deaths are on the heads of their cruel leadership, not Israel`s. To the person who thinks that getting rid of religion will solve the problem: remember that Stalin killed 10 million civilians in the name of Atheist Communism. Clearly, this notion that `religion is the root of all evil" was decisively disproved in the 20th c. Learn your history.
brynn Sugarman, Israel, Jan 4 2009 10:33:00:000AM

Rabbi Hartman`s article
Our prayers are with you, Rabbi Hartman, your son and Israel. It is a beautiful article you have written. h123 should know that it is possible for a person to feel tremendous sadness for the suffering of the innocent in Gaza, even as one supports the Israeli action. For sixty years, the Palestinian Arabs have been held hostage by their leaders` vision of being the suffering people in order to gain the world`s anger at Israel. With "brothers" in the world`s richest countries, the universities, hospitals and cultural and religious institutions that could have been built have been traded for suffering and poverty in order to make a political point. Don`t think that Jews, as people who understand that all people are made in Hashem`s likeness, don`t feel empathy for the innocent who suffer. What sadness that the culture of death and martyrdom has become the core value that the jihadists have imposed on mothers who should be rejoicing in their children`s lives and not their deaths. We are not to blame for this culture....many of us believe that it is human nature for parents to prefer peace and a life for their children with hope....but it is the leadership and supporters of Hamas and their ilk that prevent the possibility. It is their violence that prevents a normal life and requires the checkpoints that make their days so difficult and demeaning. When you say, "May G-d let you see their suffering too", please remember it is the Israeli army who warns civilians that they will be attacking...not the other way around. May G-d protect the land, army, people and state of Israel and bring a peace that all who desire peace may live to enjoy. May we all be worthy of this blessing, and until there is peace, may Israel be victorious.
rwd, usa, Jan 4 2009 10:29:00:000AM


I wish, you would for a moment think about the Palestinian children too, of those five sisters who were killed by your rockets while they slept. May God let you see their suffering too.
h123, , Jan 3 2009 10:17:00:000AM

Relly Progressive
A message to an intelligent man who is accidentally a rabbi. The country is nice but Judaism is another questions. It has some good features, but it is only a passing phase in human development, and it is time to abandon it for a better future. The other fellow religions should do the same. To tackle many real problems in the secular universe.
RealityCheck, , Jan 3 2009 4:13:00:000AM

Failing to act against your enemies
As a father of a joung Oleh starting conscription, I share the feelings of D. Hartman as painful as they might be. As son of a Zionist who taught us the consequence of failing to act against your enemies, I feel proud of those soldiers.
BernFailer, Panama, Jan 2 2009 3:50:00:000PM

Delusions
Rabbi Gottlieb`s views are typical of the delusional left which seeks to impose its own moral criteria on Israel`s enemies. They claim that "only if" Israel does this, this, this and this, that butterflies will roam and peace will sing out across Gaza. Rabbi Gottlieb and like thinkers just do not understand that Hamas` raison d`etre is the destruction of Israel and Jews. That is a religious conviction stronger than those held by settlers in Judea and Samaria and are not subject to the legal restrictions of a government like Israel`s. I am all for peace, a two state solution and the rest. I am not for auto-suicide, which is the logical conclusion of the need of people like Rabbi Gottlieb to make peace and excuses even at the cost of the State of Israel. If you do not have the nerve or will to fight for what is right, get out.
Randy Shiner, USA, Jan 2 2009 3:47:00:000AM

The Pain and Dilemma ...
Donniel, My prayers are with you, your son and all the other young Jewish men and women who are serving their country and fighting for our Jewish country. To Rabbi Gottlieb, I can only say that your sentiments sound great on paper, but you are completely oblivious to the clear and present reality. Please note Rabbi Levine`s remarks well, although there are no lack of opinions this time around that acknowledge the necessary military steps Israel has to take to end the continuing barrage of missiles firing on the western Negev. The Arab world is closely watching ...
Fern Baker, USA, Jan 2 2009 1:31:00:000AM

The Pain and Dilemma
This is a beautiful expression of how Israel has grown as a country. Your son and all soldiers of the IDF are in my prayers for a peace-filled new year.
Bob Kopka, USA, Jan 1 2009 10:49:00:000PM


Rabbi Gottlieb`s response is detached from reality. With whom does she presume to make peace? How is peace possible with an enemy like Hamas that exists purely to destroy "Zionist Nazis?" How is peace possible with a terrorist organization that clearly states "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."? From her safe perch in the United States, Rabbi Gottlieb quotes religious texts urging peace but conveniently neglects texts demanding self-defense: "And these may be prevented [at the cost of their lives]: he who pursues after his fellow to slay him…” (Sanhedrin 8:7). Since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, the terrorist regime has relentlessly pursued Israel – they have launched more than 6,000 missiles at innocent civilians. Although, thankfully, the death toll has been small, each attack was intended to kill as many innocent civilians as possible. The brave soldiers of the IDF and the courageous political leaders are fulfilling their political and moral obligations to protect the lives of Israel’s citizens. Before anyone can take Rabbi Gottlieb seriously, she must answer this question: When would you take up arms to defend your family and your country? My hunch is that her answer would be, “Never.”
Rabbi Mark H Levine, USA, Dec 31 2008 9:16:00:000PM

Israel and Gaza
I pray for your son`s safety and for the safety of all our army, our beleaguered citizens in the south and those in the gaza strip.
A.Ilan, Israel, Dec 31 2008 8:31:00:000PM

Your words, our hearts
As parents of a Hayal Boded (Lone Soldier) who made Aliyah almost three years ago, we could not agree with you more. We too, even from afar, are fearful yet proud. Hazak V`Amatz!
Judith Fogel, USA, Dec 31 2008 8:08:00:000PM

FATHER
kol hakovod for this beautiful expression of your thoughts and feelings. how fortunate you are to be living in our country with your proud children. how unfortunate for the rest of us here as guests in galut. i envy you,rabbi hartman
dr. martinni, galut, Dec 31 2008 7:33:00:000PM

OUR SHARED PAST
I GREW UP WITH DONNY`S DAD IN BROWNSVILLE BROOKLYN.WE LIVED ACROSS FROM EACH OTHER ON SARATOGA AVE, WENT TO THE SAME YESHIVA, AND MESIVTA. DOVIE WAS A FABULOUS BASKETBALL PLAYER,HAD A SHARP CRITICAL MIND. HE OFTEN TOOK UNPOPULAR POSITIONS,OFT TIMES CHALLANGING OUR TEACHRS, AND REBBEs BUT WHEN WE HEARD HIM OUT WE KNEW THAT TRUTH WAS BEING TOLD LIKE FATHER SO SON.
ROBBIE MILLER, USA, Dec 31 2008 5:40:00:000AM

Gaza
Unfortunately yet another rabbi believes that war and militarism is the road to peace and security. As an adherent of `shomer shalom`, I am deeply saddened by the continual reliance on militarism by all sides to address conflict and violence. I lament the failure to address the systematic violence of occupation and the need to find ways to live together through constructive peace building measures. The firing of rockets on Sderot is unacceptable and terrible as has a whole series of actions by the Israeli government that have lead to a deepening of this conflict both in the West Bank and in Gaza. A rabbi should be preaching and teaching peace with our enemies on the basis of `who is the greatest hero? One who turns an enemy into a friend." The head of the Hartman Institute should not be preaching the value of self and national sacrifice in behalf of war, especially not when it involves sending a whole new generation of young people to die for their leaders` mistakes. Rather, we should be the candle in the darkness that is lighting the way to the possibilities of peace through nonviolent actions. I pray there is no more loss of life on either side. To save one life is to save the entire world. See the families of Sderot and families of Gaza who made an effort to reach out to each other inspite of their leadership. Can we not embrace shalom fully, even in these times, can we not find a way? Call for an immediate ceasefire and an end to the siege of Gaza and an end to the firing of rockets on Israel. L`shalom Rabbi Lynn Gottlieb
Rabbi Lynn Gottlieb, United States, Dec 30 2008 10:57:00:000PM

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