The unholy alliance in Hebron   (18/12/2008)

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Ask a Palestinian why he lost faith in peace ...
Ask a Palestinian why he or she lost faith in the peace process, and he will blaim the Israelis for it, the increase in road blocks, Israeli intransigence in eace negotiations. Like most Jews, most Palestinians do want peace, but like most Jews, other demands have a higher priority. On the Israeli side it is very difficult to drop the vision of a Jewish state in all of Eretz Israel (hence the government usually supports the settlers against the Palestinians). On the Palestinian side it is difficult to accept that while Israel already took 78% of their land in 1948 (and created a huge refugee problem), Israel wants to take even more now.
Jacob, Netherlands, Jan 22 2010 1:48:00:000PM

What morality?
What "Jewish morality" is being violated by saying that Jews have the right to live anywhere -- especially in the Land of Israel? What "Jewish moralty" denies Jews the right to defend themselves against Arab attacks, including the denial of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel? What "Jewish morality" condemns Jews in Hebron, but not violent Arabs or a rump government with no legitimacy for what happened in Hebron? How can "Jewish morality" be separated from "Jewish law" and Jewish rights?
meir, Tel Aviv/Israel, Dec 30 2008 4:29:00:000AM

Moral standards ?
I am surprised to read that "the vast majority of settlers lived by these moral and legal standards". Building settlements in occupied territory are war crimes (Geneva Convention). The fact that they are settlers means that they are living outside moral and legal standards
Jan Elshout, Netherlands, Dec 29 2008 9:29:00:000PM

Delusion
There is an old saying. "Hurt me once, shame on you. Hurt me twice shame on me." How long are you going to live with the delusion that there will be any peace with the present parties. How can you say that the settlers are impeding peace when the so-called negotiating partners, Fatah, continue to spew hatred of Jews and Israel from the media, schools and pulpit - and continue to take Jewish lives. Is it not a Jewish value to survive with Torah, like we have done for milennia? Where do the settlers, whom you vilify, disobey this Jewish principle? And why do you call them settlers? They are Jews coming back to the Land, just like you.
Sol Grazi, Israel, Dec 29 2008 11:27:00:000AM

Name calling
The writer says "radical Israeli settlers" as if he has support in such name calling by the Israeli populous, which he doesn`t. He later confirms that Israelis support settling the land and reject the "Land for Peace" concept in its entirety. So the writer is the "Radical", as the mainstream Israeli (both Jewish and Muslim) do NOT support his views.
Great White North, Canada, Dec 27 2008 1:07:00:000AM

Unholy Alliance
Excellent piece. Finally the moral issue of how the settlers interface with their Palestinian neighbors is honestly addressed by someone of your stature. Please keep this very critical conversation going so that we can continue to be the Or L`Goyim to which we aspire.
Tobi Richman-Steinhardt, USA, Dec 26 2008 5:31:00:000PM

alliance comments
I am bewildered, and I need some help. Since I don`t live in Israel, I may misunderstand things. I am having trouble understanding why attacks on unarmed civilians who are not directly causing you harm to achieve a political end is not considered terrorism, whatever the ethnicity or beliefs of that population.
Saul Wasserman, USA, Dec 25 2008 8:26:00:000PM

useful idiots
The Bolshevik party and later the Soviet Ubion atracted the adoration and blind support of intellectuals in the West. They were drawn to him and the Communist dictatorship for some reason like moths to light. Lenin had a term for them."useful idiots" It seems that in every generation evil causes attract the same "useful idiots" This time the enemies of Israel are benefiting from the phenomenom.
shalom pollack, israel, Dec 25 2008 9:25:00:000AM

Why do we need Israel
If You say that As long as we do the notion that the Jewishness of Israel is not defined solely by the amount of land we hold but by the extent of Jewish values we embody. Then I think that Land of Israel need to disapear from the world,then we will be so nice and beautiful in the eyes of the worlds and you will get Nobel Prize for your beautiful and visionary article. Please read again some parashiot like KI TETSE or
Hashmonaim, France, Dec 24 2008 6:06:00:000PM

baaka is occupied Palestinian land
The artificial distinction between settler and other occupier or Palestinian land is totally irrelevent to the Palestinians who Also deem Rabbi Donniel as an occupier. Its` unfortunate that he has jumped on the baandwagon pf the politically correct.
mitchell Choylee, israel, Dec 24 2008 4:04:00:000PM

You are committed to the Road Map??
I wonder, WHO is paying you? Any Jew who refuses to see that the Road Map is suicidal for Israel is either blind, stupid, or paid by the enemy. So , since I know you are not stupid, and not blind, the only question left is: WHO IS FUNDING YOUR INSTITUTE? How much money are you getting from Europe, from the Ford Foundation, etc???
DS, Israel, Dec 24 2008 4:04:00:000PM

Shifting Alliances
An interesting analysis by Hartman. But even though he regrets what is happening, he admits that it is based on what mainstream Israelis see and feel, their day-to-day experiences. Certainly this is much more favorable than clinging to ideologies which are no longer valid. Hartman seems to be saying that Israelis should keep those "moderate" beliefs which he shares, and ignore changing realities on the ground. It ain`t gonna work like that. We`re not robots and we react to Palestinian intransigence and terror.
Doug, Israel, Dec 24 2008 2:36:00:000PM

settlers judaism is an offense to monotheism
I write as a former IDF soldier who served in Hebron and a concerned Israeli citizen. There is no other group of israelies more reflective of our collective moral blindness as the settlers of hevron. The people of hevron enjoy in a sick way the drama of the ghetto. They have created a reality that will match times in history in which we were politically weak even though they are there by the force of the IDF. There behavior towards non-Jews is a symptom of the common human pattern known as repetition compulsion, of doing to others what was done to you. The kind of sanctification of the tomb of the patriarchs expressed in one of these responses and often in settlers publications is an offense to monotheism. Avraham avinu and Sara imenu are accessible anywhere to a Jew whose soul is awake. Requiring control of any burial site for religious reasons has no foundation in Halacha.
nd, jerusalem Israel, Dec 24 2008 11:22:00:000AM

lack of judaism, honesty
The most astounding part of this article was its absolute lack of and even distortion of Judaism and Jewish values. The author is totally ignorant of the Torah, especially evident when he states that Jewish-statesmenship means "moral" obligations to all people (moral is the term used to cloak the idea of equality). Anyone with even a basic knowledge of Torah and Torah law knows however that it is a mitzvah to conquer the whole of Israel, and to either expel (or kill) all inhabitants that refuse to accept Jewish soveriegnty. The author may find it hard to believe but the great `Englightented` codifier of Jewish law-Maimonides even writes that non-Jews must accept to be "humiliated and low" and not hold any public post "even as a manager in the water carriers" (Laws of Kings, chapter 5). This is codified by ALL the Jewish commentators and codifiers as the law FOR ALL TIMES. Even besides life in Israel, the Torah has no idea of equality between Jews and non-Jews; for instance a Jew is never held culpable for the killing of a non-Jew (Talmud: Sanhedrin, Maimonides: Laws of Murder chapter 1) Besides the lack of honesty regarding Judaism, the author brazingly attempts to portray the majority of Israeli Jews as accepting the Land-for-Peace formula, despite numerous polls to the contrary (and most polls include Israels 1.5 million Arabs, squewing the polls towards the left). Only a majority of Israel`s Knesset support Land-for-Peace. Also, the Land of Israel movement does not base its asperations solely on the religious obligation of settling all of the Land, rather IT IS very much due to pragmatic reasons such as the inherent danger of a Palestinian state in the heartland of such a tiny country.
David, Israel, Dec 24 2008 2:01:00:000AM

PEACE FOR PEACE!!!
G-D gave the Jewish people the land of Israel.No person has the right to change that.If you and your family stayed in Sderot and experienced the fears and shocks that they experience daily due to the kassams that are aimed to kill Jews you and all the left might open your eyes to the truth:Fattah,Hamas..want to wipe Israel off the map! WAKE UP FROM YOUR ILLUSION BEFORE YOU BECOME A VICTOM OF TERROR!!!Read the Mandate For Palestine on Mythsandfacts.com by Eli Hertz and publicize the FACTS!
odel jacobs, usa, Dec 23 2008 11:29:00:000PM

Unholy Alliance in Hebron
Three years ago,while spending a week at SHI. I took a first time excursion, alone with a guide to Hebron. When I arrived, there were several Jewish families picnicking in an open treed area. Inside the building, I found tables of men studying and heatedly discussing Talmud, and then music and dancing in the next room. The celebration was a brit milah and the room was flooded with men and women (many of whom were pregnant and surrounded by many other children. I and my guide were swept into the dancing circle. It was amazing. I then visited the burial places of our Matriarchs and Patriarchs.I could not help but shed tears for the sense of awe I experienced, it was a defining moment for me. No, not Hebron for peace, never Hebron. Peace will not come by extinguishing our heritage, especially when dealing with a people led by spokesmen and leaders who have no commitment to peace, at least not with a Jewish State in their midst.
Fern B, United States, Dec 23 2008 4:59:00:000PM

Land for Peace or Piece
Land for Peace? We sacrificed Gush Katif and receive rockets in Sderot and Ashkelon. That is land for piece - they get one piece, then another, then another, until all of Israel is gone. What about Land for peace in the other direction -moving out Arabs in the name of peace? Would that be considered acceptable or is it racism. If the latter, so too when speaking about expelling Jews from their homes and land. And lastly, I don`t know where you`re statistics come from: `I believe, as do most left-, center- and right-leaning Israelis, that some land for peace is not only acceptable but crucial to the future of Israel as a Jewish state.` Why do you think that most center and right-leaning Jews believe in abandoning Eretz Yisrael? I believe the opposite - according to a poll released a week ago, after the expulsion from Beit HaShalom, 74% of Jewish Israelis feel a strong connection to Hebron! That`s the real Israeli public, not an imaginary statistic without any factual basis.
David Wilder, Hebron, Israel, Dec 23 2008 1:13:00:000PM

applying labels in reverse
Perhaps if you were to see the settlers as the rightful heirs of Israel.....and the "vast majority" as the interlopers. Then, mayhaps, you might have a glimmer of the true hope of Israel
Robert Little, United States of America, Dec 23 2008 4:32:00:000AM


"If Israel is a Jewish State, How can you justify giving up the Hebron area which was purchased by Abraham to bury his wife Sarah" Good question. How about this, Hebron and Bethlehem become free international zones with religious rights guaranteed by a Nato force.
David S, , Dec 22 2008 11:38:00:000PM

Response to Alan Kohn: Is Israel a Jewsih State?
Israel is a Jewish State and therefore must be bounded and shaped by its moral vision, and not just by lines drawn on maps. The Torah`s vision for the people of Israel is much more clear on issues of morality than it is on issues of geography.
Jeffrey Spitzer, USA, Dec 22 2008 7:56:00:000PM

LEFTIST IDEALS
Any compromises that the left made towards Arabs have turned sour; from Oslow to Gaza.Any future deals will also sour;learn from the past.
Leon Brum, USA, Dec 22 2008 3:41:00:000PM

Chanukah and Hebron
majority of people responding to your article actually as of right now its 100 percent feel differently. as we celebrate the first night of chanukah i wonder if we would be calling the macabbees extremists and not giving them our full support. certainly people like you would not have joined the fight. instead you would have accepted the majority of the world being hellenist and our need to appease them. and that the ruling class of israel at the time were also hellenists, so it must mean that we should follow blindly like lemmings. thank G-d for the maccabees that live in Hebron and the hills of judea and samaria. the true light of the chashmanaim shines through them. chanukah sameach may we realize the true essence of what we are celebrating.
yerachmiel, israel, Dec 22 2008 12:27:00:000PM

Land for peace illusion
The real problem is that Israelis are living in an illusion: They don`t want to face reality, the fact that Arab`s don`t want Israel in their midst. The sol called "Palestinian Nation" is an artificial creation, who`s sole purpose is to destroy Israel. Palestinians are not interested in a state. If they were, they would have created one long time ago. They are the instrument of the forces who want to destroy Israel. There is no possibility of peace, other than based on strength. Arabs, can, and will respect a strong Israel. They loath the weak Israel which is begging them for peace. Likewise, Syria does not need Golan, it is a very peripheral and artificial issue for them. Just another excuse to keep enmity. So wake up Israelis, wake up Jews. Stop dreaming, and realize that if Israel does not act to defend itself, nobody will. Certainly not United States. On the other hand, even if the whole world condemns Israel, deep in their heart they will respect Israel if it a strong country.
Ray Briht, USA, Dec 22 2008 11:36:00:000AM

Is Israel a Jewish State?
If Israel is a Jewish State, How can you justify giving up the Hebron area which was purchased by Abraham to bury his wife Sarah, the mother of Isaac, the grandmother of Jacob in the oldest deed in history which is described in Chayye Sarah, Genesis Chapter XXIII and which contains the Tomb of our Patriarchs and our Matriarchs (excepting Rachael)? If you don`t believe in the validity of the Torah, then Israel cannot be a Jewish State, and how can you justify residing in any part of the land in this entire region? Please don`t quote any pronouncements by the United Nations or any other international authority to me, because these bodies cannot replace The Holy Scriptures for anyone who calls himself/herself Jewish.
Alan Kohn, U.S.A., Dec 22 2008 8:18:00:000AM


It`s not that land for peace has not decreased terror. It increased it. There is a good reason why more & more Israelis are disenchanted with it: the experimental evidence indicates that the hypothesis is wrong (though it admittedly appeared logical at the beginning). The author laments Israel not cracking down on the settlers. But it allows Gaza to constantly shoot missles at it; why should the relatively harmless activities of the settlers be stopped? Oh, and the security forces do violently suppress the settlers sometimes.
Haim Roman, Israel, Dec 21 2008 9:17:00:000PM

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