Bringing our boys home   (05/10/2009)

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Bringing our boys home (29/06/2008)
I think Rabbi Hartman asserted the position in favor of releasing Kuntar, et. al, as well as it can be stated. A large majority of the people have agreed with this extremely difficult decision. The people thereby asserted that they accept the dangers and risks resulting from the Kuntar trade. The people have a right to accept these risks. Had I deserved to vote, however, I would have voted no. Where we differ is on the degree of certainty that other lives will be lost as a result of the Kuntar trade. Rabbi Hartman argues that “certainty outweighs potentiality” and that the certainty that “Shalit will [otherwise] die,” and “that Shalit, Goldwasser and Regev must be brought home alive or dead for closure for their families… outweighs the potential harm” because that “potential” is uncertain. It is uncertain, Rabbi Hartman asserts, because even if Kuntar is not released, the enemy will always find others who will kill try to us. Releasing Kuntar, et. al. will not, in Rabbi Hartman’s view, “tip the balance of power or embolden our enemy to attack us.” That is where the argument fails. It is, in fact, a certainty that Goldwasser and Regev were kidnapped and died in action because of Israel’s policy of making these trades. Nasrallah said it himself many times. Over the past 10 years, he and other blood worshippers and baby killers have publicly, shamelessly and proudly announced a policy of kidnapping Israelis in order to obtain Kuntar’s and other terrorists` release. Many have died in the course of previous kidnappings, including the Achilles Lauro debacle, the goal of which was to obtain Kuntar’s release. Those who died were as innocent, and as deserving of life, as Shalit. It is also a certainty that Shalit himself was kidnapped, and set off a war with Hamas in which many people died, because Hamas was counting on using this “asset” - Shalit - to free prisoners. It is a certainty that more people will be kidnapped, and more people will die, as a result of the Kunter trade and so many other trades like it. Indeed, Nasrallah has already announced that his blood thirst has not been satiated. He has publicly boasted that he will kidnap even more innocents for this purpose, knowing full well that war may result. The thousands of potential victims, both Arab and Jew, deserve protection from this insanity no less than Shalit. In other countries, innocent citizens do get more protection. How often has the Arab world, Chechnyans or Tibetans so publicly and brazenly as Nasrallah and Hamas announced the adoption of a policy to kidnap Americans, Russians or Chinese to use in an attempt to free their comrades? Rarely. In fact, in 1979 the Iranians held 52 Americans as hostages for 444 days in an attempt to obtain the release by America of the Iranian Shah and to extract other American concessions. They did not get the Shah, achieved little and unilaterally released these prisoners when Reagan came to power. Despite all their subsequent war mongering cries of "Death to America," the Iranians never again tried that stunt with the Americans. By standing firm, America protected future American victims of kidnappings and proved thereby that it loves its citizens at least as much as Israel loves hers. So, while I completely agree with Rabbi Hartman’s belief in the infinite value of every life, that principle applies not just to the life of the dear, captured soldier, but also to the lives of the many that have yet to be captured. Their lives have infinite value as well. They must be protected by making it clear to Nasrallah and all the other blood lovers and baby killers that should they kidnap one more person, it will be deemed an act of war for which they will pay a terrible price and that, in the end, they will achieve nothing. It is Nasrallah and his ilk who should be forced to balance the certainty of the terrible price they will pay for kidnapping Israelis against the uncertainty of achieving their goals. Not the other way around. In this instance, we have much to learn from the Gentiles.
Harry J. Reidler, USA, Jul 21 2008 5:59:00:000AM

Pay Now or Pay Later
So- we should take an action to ease current discomfort even if it is certain to cause much more of the same kind of discomfort going forward? Spend a hundred future lives to save one present life? I think not.
Paul Kotik, USA, Jul 21 2008 5:10:00:000AM

Bringing boys home
Donniel Hartman`s views on swapping terrorists for live or dead IDF soldiers are immoral. They are absolutely contrary to the values of today`s modern pluralist democracies and, more particularly, Jewish values. Every single democratic country has excoriated Israel for negotiating the release of terrorists since it undermines the free world`s policy of winning the war against the enemies of civilization. In Canada, the editorial page of the Ottawa Citizen called the release of Hizbullah terrorists by Israel "stupid," and an example of the nefarious effects of unhinged post-modernist thinking. Surely Donniel Hartman does not wish to turn his back on the clear universalist values of the democratic world? He also displays complete ignorance of Jewish values which expressly forbid endangering the lives of the Jewish community in the diaspora and in Erets Yisrael. These values are embodied in the Jewish value par excellence of pikuach nefesh, which means saving the lives of Jews. It is absolutely forbidden in Judaism to engage in human sacrifice by exposing our villages, towns and cities to massacres by terrorist beasts. Such a policy by a Jewish state is firmly ruled out by the Talmud and Halakha. The ony Jewish responses to terrorists holding IDF soldiers is an Entebbe response whereby a rescue mission is mounted or a King David response as detailed in our beloved Tanakh when a maidservant captive was released by a war of annihilation waged by David against the terrorist Canaanites living in Arad. Our value of pidyon shvuim requires the Jewish state to redeem all our captives through an unremitting war against terrorist captors rather than negotiating with them and paying the price of surrendering murderers. Any Jew who fails to understand these democratic and Jewish values is a complete and utter ignoramus and a danger to his own people. By the way, your reference to our exchange of Syrian and Egyptian soldiers with blood on their hands is nonsensical. These people were prisoners of war. they were exchanged when the wars were over. This is a principle of democratic and Jewish values. Similarly, when the war against the Hizbullah terrorists will be over, then prisoners can be exvchanged, and not before. Please try to understand world and Jewish history and spare us your amateurish and dangerous opinions which have no basis in fact or faith.
Prof. Ya`acov Yampolsky, Canada, Jul 20 2008 6:59:00:000PM

prisoner swap
What do you say about the actions of the Maharam of Rothenburg (circa 4980 - 5053)as a precedent? Rabbi Meir ben Baruch, of Rothenburg, more than seven centuries ago,was arrested, imprisoned and held for ransom. He forbade the Jewish communities to pay any ransom for him, since it would lead to imprisonment of additional Rabbis for ransom and possibly bankrupt the Jewsh community. He died in prison after seven years. His body was ransomed 14 years later.
Dan Birenbaum, USA, Jul 18 2008 7:21:00:000PM

Making Our Society Whole
All of you people who dismiss the difficult decision of the Israeli government should look inside your own souls and then seek Teshuvah. That the Israeli Government made a painful decision to redeem the bodies of the fallen and bring closure to the families at a painful price is an act of strength, not weakness. We are all sickened by the likes of Samir Kuntar and cannot but have a bitter taste in our mouth at releasing a cold blooded killer of children. And, yes, Halachah debates the price we should pay to redeem the life of a Jew (or, by extension, the bodies of the dead). But Israel is not a theoretical construct -- it is a State of flesh and blood people, protected by an army of sons and fathers and brothers and cousins and friends. And it is a strong state, that has means of Jewish self-defense not available to the Israel or Bablylonian communities in the time of the Talmud, nor in the time of the Maharam MiRotenburg. What price would be too high to bring back Ron Arad? What price would be too high to bring closure on the fates of Zechariah Baumel and many others. What price will be too high to bring home Gilad Shalit to his family. Of course there is a limit, but Israel must be prepared to make grand efforts to redeem the missing and the lost. That is what makes us unique among the nations. It is certainly legitimate to ponder the difficult decisions of the day, and to be concerned by future implications. Be we should also be sensitive to the families of the fallen, the families of all soldiers, and all of Israel, who are strengthened by Israel`s commitment to the well-being of the Jewish National Collective.
Rabbi Pinky Schmeckelstein, USA, Jul 18 2008 7:21:00:000AM

Today`s prisoner swap
Dr.Hartman,while I admire your genuine concern for the soldiers`families, your logic is deeply flawed. As pointed out to you, the Torah does not condone this kind of captors` redemption, and unfortunately, today`s exchange will make it almost impossible, if not totally impossible, to free Gilad, for whom I and thousands of others daven for daily.Your compassion would be put to better use if you add Gilad`s name 3x daily to your Shemona Esrai, and next time do better research on what are genuine Jewish/Torah values-don`t mix them up with today`s liberal, western so-called values.
Roz L., USA, Jul 17 2008 5:33:00:000AM

Capitulation to terrorism
The border of "Pidyon Shvuyim" ends where "Pikuach Nefesh" begins. Sorry, but your opinion has more holes in it than swiss cheese.
Alan Schleider, Neve Daniel, Israel, Jul 16 2008 11:16:00:000AM

I agree
I agree. Why don`t we just give the terrorists the whole country right now and be done with it. For a supposedly intelligent person???
Howard, Australia, Jul 16 2008 6:15:00:000AM

Future Victim`s Lives Have Infinite Value
One life has infinite valuie therefore no murderers who will kill again should go free ever
Jonathan, Israel, Jul 15 2008 10:32:00:000AM

Peace & War
The U.S. is going down the same road of "Live even if they murder us". Our schools are pathetic and the Politicicos want to stay in office until Messiah comes. (Blessed be his name) The Holy Scriptures say all of this would come to pass; and here it is! Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Thomas Morris
Thomas Morris, United States of America, Jul 12 2008 11:44:00:000AM

Opinion vs Truth
Only a heartless person would not want "our boys" home and while the author is entitled to his opinion about whether we did or didn`t pay to much in the current case, he does an injustice to the truth by implying that Judaism proclaims there is no limit to the price we should pay for pidyon shevuim. I notice that while he proudly represents his academic qaulifications he significantly dosn`t give us the source of his Rabbinnic ordination. Its not surprising then that this article also dosn`t fairly present the struggle discussed by our Classic Jewish sources which for centuries wrestled with the very difficult and painful matter of the limits of pidyon shevuim. Donniel Hartmen either does the truth an injustice and shows his lack of education in the classic literary souces of the Jewish people or perhaps this piece was written for the funders of his institution and those who only want to hear the confirmation of their own political opinion?
Yossi, Israel, Jul 10 2008 11:17:00:000AM

WHAT RUBBISH
I cannot believe how pathetically impotent and weak the Israeli govt has become. What a disgusting legacy of left wing rubbish and appeasement this entire left wing Israeli thought has brought the country since 1992 ( 5752). From barak to sharon to olmert. Israel must never accept dead bodies in order to save the living. Every day I thank Hashem that I am not raising my children in the land of hummus, pita, olim and smolim.
james burke, canada, Jul 10 2008 1:46:00:000AM

Comparison of choices and their impacts
While the price may have been worth paying, to attempt to justify it by saying no price is too high is absurd. There were two choices, accept this deal, which the government has said is the best possible, or reject it. Neither option is desirable for obvious reasons but the "less bad" choice is the one that must be taken. This article offers virtually nothing as it it fails to deal with the very significant negative repercussions of this exchange. More kidnappings, killing Israeli captives rather than trying to keep them alive, usurping the sentence meted out by the courts to terorists, allowing the terrorists to be freed and resume their activities, increasing exponentially the price to be paid for Schalit and thus making his return less likely, are all forseeable results from this exchange. Explain how they will not occur or why more Israeli deaths is an appropriate price to pay.
Amy Katz Martin, Canada, Jul 8 2008 10:50:00:000PM

Paying any price
This article is extremely dangerous and totally false. THERE IS NO BLURRING OF THE LINE BETWEEN TERRORISTS AND UNIFORMED SOLDIERS. The writer has insulted every single one of our soldiers by this utter distortion. Targeted killings work extremely well when the leaders are targeted. It doesn`t take much to replace a retarded suicide bomber. It is much harder to replace leaders. While I hope there is never another kidnapping or body-snatching by terrorists I hope the author will go to the home of the next victim. The deal for Goldwasser and Regev has infinitely increased the danger to Gilad Schalit. And not ending this phony ceasefire has put the residents of the South in infinitely more danger. This article is a gross pandering to terrorists. Which of course is what the govt of Israel is doing.
Sharona, Israel, Jul 8 2008 12:49:00:000PM

Jewish law forbids
What is clear to even a novice of Jewish law is that since the time of the Mishnah, if not before then, it has been forebidden to give `too much` in return for the release of captive[s]. The MAHARAM of Rotenberg would not let his followers redeem him, and died as a hostage, due to his concern about this clearcut law. It is clear from ancient times that our enemies will merely raise the price of a future exchange, and that the terrorists who are released will go on to kill more innocent people. It is a shame that the author of this essay did not understand this simple principle of Jewish law.
Sam, NY, USA, Jul 8 2008 2:25:00:000AM


I can see exchanging a life for a life, but the exchange of those dead for those alive seems to only lead to no reason for Israeli prisoners to be kept alive for future exchange. Am I missing something here?
john, usa, Jul 3 2008 4:56:00:000AM

price to pay
i am appalled at jewish weakness in the face of this series of planned kidnappings that will know no end!- as a former combat veteran of vietnam and israel, a soldier should not enter the arena of combat unless he is williing to die, be hurt or taken captive, and we as jews forget we have another choise, as long as the hartman institute insists on quoting torah. go directly to the chumash, va`yeshb bo shevi! for a simple non-jewish woman who was captured we annihilated an entire people!- the message we need to send is simple!- we insist on immediate return of captives or we will engage in mass slaughter, since life, is precious, all life! and when you are innocent, ie: jewish, you have a right to destroy the evil countries or entities in your way to send a world wide message so that all innocents, whether here, or in a school in russia, or in burma or wherever will not be made to suffer as we do. the talmud says that anyone who pities the brutal in the end will be brutal to the innocent.- we must spill massive ammounts of hizzbolah and fatah blood and be ready to do it to iran quickly with maximum speed and violence without any pity or hesitation. there is no question that the comparison between professional terrorists and syrian soldiers etc. is ridiculous- as to their individual everyday acts, but just like the nazis or japaneese in ww2 they both needed to be collectively punished, it was a problem of the entire society. may the peace that eventually come, be on the terms layed down in our torah souces, which will leave us in complete control of our inheritance.
ben karan, usa, Jul 3 2008 12:56:00:000AM


There is no sense in trading a live murderer for a dead soldier. By so doing you decrease the value of live Jewish captives. The next time they want to pick up a bargaining chip to trade they will know that it is not necessary to keep him alive. We do not want our boys back dead or alive, we want them back alive.
Jack, Canada, Jul 2 2008 9:17:00:000PM

Hostages and Halacha
While Mr.Hartman does correctly quote the Mishnah from Sanhedrian, he neglects a huge portion of the rabbinic debate that lays out a completely opposite opinion and halachic position than the one that he advances. As pointed out by a fellow reader/comment; the Rabbis` absolutely forbid the payment of an excessive amount to free a hostage. This is further explained by Rabbi Yosef Karo in the Shulchan Aruch (yoreh Deyah). I am sorry to say that our current leaders here in Israel are not of the quality of our sages, to say the least. Altough this is a difficult and painful reality for the families of our captured and fallen soldiers, we must remember that they are our soldiers, that they risked their lives against a cruel and immoral enemy that must be destroyed. this is war with a ruthless enemy that will only become encouraged by our displays of weekness and by not correctly living in the land of Israel as Jews.
Luta, Israel, Jul 2 2008 2:19:00:000PM

Talmud
The author quotes the talmud in Sanhedrin to back his liebral view. In fact the talmud there forbids us to ransom captives at exhorbitant cost since that encourages further kidnapping. We must act from strenth not weakness. If Olmert "is tired of winning, tired of beating our enemies" he should resign. This government and those who come before couldnot give a `ki who zeh` about the lives or Ron Arad or any of the captives until now for whom they have done nothing significant. By releasing large numbers of cold-blooded murderers in exchange for the bodies of dead soldiers we are tellig our avowed enemies not to be afraid to brutally murder us (as Kuntar their hero did) because if they are caught we will at worst jail them and then their comrades in arms will capture one of ours, kill him and hol dhis body until we release the murderers. It is time we gave Jewish blood the supreme value it deserves
Roland, Jerusalem, Jul 2 2008 2:02:00:000AM


I am the mother of an IDF combat soldier. This one thing I know: no one loves their soldiers more than the Israeli people; they are everyone`s sons and daughters. I am dismayed and disheartened, however, by the callousness of Diaspora Jews sitting in their far away Coliseum, turning their thumbs down on these three soldiers and their families, and by extension, all of our precious soldiers. I don`t know by what right they think they speak. Who would protect and defend them, if the way they want the world to be came true? Perhaps they should do some soul searching to see why competition and intellectualized hatred has trumped humanity and compassion in their hearts. Anyway, I thought this was the most thoughtful and best written explanation I have read for the importance of Sunday`s decision to all of us. I agree with all you said. Thank you for caring. After all the negatives I have read, this means a lot to me.
B, US, Jul 1 2008 10:05:00:000PM

Question for the Rabbis
If indeed "no price is too high to pay", then may I ask a question? If Hizbullah asked, instead of a prisoner exchange, just for 100 of the best Rabbis of Israel to go to the "Wailing Wall" and publicly CURSE the God of Israel, and publicly SPIT ON AND BURN 100 copies of the Torah, in exchange for the release of ALL captive Israelies, WOULD YOU STILL DO IT?
Michael T., USA, Jul 1 2008 12:41:00:000PM

Your arguments are faulty
If "no price is too high", then why not surrender all of Israel for one hostage, and finish with everything !! Also, what would you say to the families of ones who may be killed by the same terrorists now being released to continue their jihad. Aren`t the lives of these possible "future victims" also of infinite worth? There will always be injustices in this world, the idea of paying any price to rectify one of them, IN AND OF ITSELF PRODUCES other injustices!
Michael T., USA, Jul 1 2008 12:27:00:000PM


But what about the certainty of potentiality = i.e. that now, by negotiating with terrorists, the door is open for more Shalits, Goldwassers and Regevs to be taken and held for ransom?
J, US, Jul 1 2008 1:46:00:000AM

Too clever by half
The argument that there is no price too high to pay for redeeming terrorist holding hostage captured soldiers (dead or alive)is facile. By engaging in such conduct Israel encourages terrorists (and Hezbollah and Hamas are just that despite the absurd notion that they represent a new type of warfare that is as legitimate as conventional military conduct) to continue to engage in hostage taking (and worse) that will come at the expense of one or more Israeli lives. How is that morally superior?
dave, usa, Jun 30 2008 10:00:00:000PM

return of Israeli captives
I agree completely .The entire purpose of a Jewish presence in the world is to enhance the highest of moral options.
Zmira Cohen, South Africa, Jun 30 2008 9:23:00:000PM


I agree completely!
Dan, Israel, Jun 30 2008 4:33:00:000PM

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